Trump2020OP wrote:
Only attractive heterosexual women should be allowed to run professionally.
MAGA
Love it!
Trump2020OP wrote:
Only attractive heterosexual women should be allowed to run professionally.
MAGA
Love it!
Caster should have married a MAN and had a baby to shut us all up once and fr all but NO He married a chick and has no kids because she is a HE
GD wrote:
been to Buj wrote:1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.
2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.
______________________
The problem with this thinking is that it assumes you can identify women with intersex conditions on site. There's probably a loose correlation between hyperandrogenism and male secondary sex characteristics, but it's not a condition that we can eyeball with accuracy. This leads people to start bashing women they view as "manly." And because feminine beauty ideals are associated with white, Western women, the whole thing becomes a cesspool of racism and misogyny.
In all the noise, valid questions about how sex differences should be handled in order to promote fair sport get dismissed on the grounds of the "isms."
The only informed post here.
GD wrote:
been to Buj wrote:1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.
2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.
______________________
The problem with this thinking is that it assumes you can identify women with intersex conditions on site. There's probably a loose correlation between hyperandrogenism and male secondary sex characteristics, but it's not a condition that we can eyeball with accuracy. This leads people to start bashing women they view as "manly." And because feminine beauty ideals are associated with white, Western women, the whole thing becomes a cesspool of racism and misogyny.
In all the noise, valid questions about how sex differences should be handled in order to promote fair sport get dismissed on the grounds of the "isms."
Great post.
I think the only criteria should be if an athlete has a male Y chromosome or not.
It amuses me when people cry and say "waaaaaah she has so much testosterone" when athletic success is OF COURSE releated to inborn traits. Higher testosterone is helpful to many male athletes, too.
Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps enjoy outlier genetics, too.
Spaghettimonster wrote:
been to Buj wrote:1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.
2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.
I never said a word about Wambui and Niyonsaba.
Nobody said you did. Do you read this site? They are named as part of the "big 3" suspected hyperandrogenic athletes here constantly.
It's funny, because Niyonsaba is far more lightly built than, say, Maggie Vessey. But but but to armchair commentators Vessey has the face of a pwetty laydee!
800ftw. wrote:
GD wrote:______________________
The problem with this thinking is that it assumes you can identify women with intersex conditions on site. There's probably a loose correlation between hyperandrogenism and male secondary sex characteristics, but it's not a condition that we can eyeball with accuracy. This leads people to start bashing women they view as "manly." And because feminine beauty ideals are associated with white, Western women, the whole thing becomes a cesspool of racism and misogyny.
In all the noise, valid questions about how sex differences should be handled in order to promote fair sport get dismissed on the grounds of the "isms."
The only informed post here.
Yes. If GD is a woman I want to be her penpal.
Clearly, the category of "women" is lacking in a clear-cut biomarker of gender. If we are to have a separate, objective category from "open", it should be restricted to people who have successfully live-birthed a child. All others must compete as "open" athletes. For the 800, this would likely place Alysia Montano as the world/Olympic champion for the "mother's" category. For the 1500, Sara Vaughn would at least be a medalist.
Mo-Moh wrote:
Caster should have married a MAN and had a baby to shut us all up once and fr all but NO He married a chick and has no kids because she is a HE
Wow, his wife is beautiful!
So:
Has balls.
Has a male level of testosterone.
Looks male.
Have XY chromosomes.
Marries a woman.
Chooses to identify as a female intersex lesbian rather than a man.
Seems a rather complicated option if not for the option of sporting glory?
Excuse moi wrote:
Clearly, the category of "women" is lacking in a clear-cut biomarker of gender.
The biomarker is not having a Y chromosome.
it's so easy wrote:
Excuse moi wrote:Clearly, the category of "women" is lacking in a clear-cut biomarker of gender.
The biomarker is not having a Y chromosome.
Na, if you put on a wig and cut off your sausage the Y chromosome disappears.
Sorry, chromosome testing is too invasive for sensitive people like Semenya and Wambui.
it's so easy wrote:
Excuse moi wrote:Clearly, the category of "women" is lacking in a clear-cut biomarker of gender.
The biomarker is not having a Y chromosome.
If its illegal for men to take illegal supplements to boost their testosterone and other hormones to an unnatural level then why can an intersex person have the same unfair advantage? There needs to be a testosterone cut off for "women" to compete. Otherwise why can't the other women racing Semenya dope themselves to the gills to make it equal? The debate is about fairness. It's not Semenya's fault that he/she is what it is but Semenya shouldn't be given an unfair advantage over others.
GD wrote:
been to Buj wrote:1. What is the actual evidence that Niyonsaba and Wambui are hyperandrogenic? I'm with you on Semenya and maybe Wambui. But Niyonsaba is a svelte 5'5", 130 lbs. I've seen her up close and wouldn't look twice at her among group of small east African female athletes.
2. Have any of you ever been to Burundi? If you had, I suspect you would speak less rudely of Niyonsaba.
______________________
The problem with this thinking is that it assumes you can identify women with intersex conditions on site. There's probably a loose correlation between hyperandrogenism and male secondary sex characteristics, but it's not a condition that we can eyeball with accuracy. This leads people to start bashing women they view as "manly." And because feminine beauty ideals are associated with white, Western women, the whole thing becomes a cesspool of racism and misogyny.
In all the noise, valid questions about how sex differences should be handled in order to promote fair sport get dismissed on the grounds of the "isms."
I agreed, up to the point where you tried very hard to make it a racist issue. That doesn't wash, because there were as many objections to East German women athletes taking so much testosterone they started developing male secondary sexual characteristics.
Please don't be dishonest and try to pretend that African women are somehow mysteriously different and look more masculine, and this shouldn't be questioned because its racist.
Lets make all test results public, put them on a professional athlete's register, and include whether they have X or Y hormones, or what level of testosterone.
We know there is evidence that Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui are XY because their times slowed considerably when they were required to take testosterone blockers. We also know it because they have visibly obvious male sexual characteristics - greater muscle mass, narrower pelvises, no breasts, Adam's apples, larger jaws, and so on. These are biological changes which occur in XY humans on puberty, as a result of having testes which produce testosterone to much higher levels than XX humans. You do get some XY males which have greater or lesser testosterone insensitivity, leading to non development, for example, of a proper penis. Sometimes you get female children who are, for want of a better word, mutilated at birth due to birth defects, to enable them to better fit in.
None of this should be used to make racist claims that African women look more masculine than African men. There are plenty of black women athletes out there, nearly all of whom look nothing like Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui, because they are XX women.
As for Niyonsaba being svelte and 5 feet 5 - I think your definition of "svelte" needs revision. Niyonsaba simply looks like a typical short muscular boy/man. All 3 are noticeably more chunky all over than their female rivals and elite level 800m runners. You simply do not get elite runners so overweight, unless you pitch club level male runners against elite females. Which is what is happening. Despite their build, all 3 simply don't tire at the point that the females in the race tire.
I love how Semenya literally has testicles and there are still people saying "but she's a woman, you're only saying she shouldn't compete with women because she doesn't conform to your notions of white beauty!"
Yeah...
it's so easy wrote:
Excuse moi wrote:Clearly, the category of "women" is lacking in a clear-cut biomarker of gender.
The biomarker is not having a Y chromosome.
What if you are XX, but you have an SRY gene on one of your X chromosomes? By your definition, people who are fully male in every way could compete as female athletes.
Struggling to Understand wrote:
So:
Has balls.
Has a male level of testosterone.
Looks male.
Have XY chromosomes.
Marries a woman.
Chooses to identify as a female intersex lesbian rather than a man.
Sounds male - males develop deeper voices and, some would argue, more confident attitudes, as a result of greater testosterone.
Lets just remind ourselves that the permitted level of testosterone by the IAAF before the recent free-for-all was still 4 times higher than 99% of women naturally produced. And that none of these athletes could naturally produce T levels within that generous allowance.
Seems a rather complicated option if not for the option of sporting glory?
Also chooses to wear typically male clothing at their wedding. Seems only to identify as a female for the purposes of professional athletics and making money.
In other news, Caster would've been no match for Pamela Jelimo in 2008.
Caster "could" break Pamela Jelimo's times but chooses not to. Breaking 1:54.01 would get her way too close to the WR and raise too many suspicions. Running 1:55s and continuing to win all the time is enough to take all the prize money and not 100% blow her cover.
BlaseBill wrote:
I agreed, up to the point where you tried very hard to make it a racist issue. That doesn't wash, because there were as many objections to East German women athletes taking so much testosterone they started developing male secondary sexual characteristics.
Please don't be dishonest and try to pretend that African women are somehow mysteriously different and look more masculine, and this shouldn't be questioned because its racist.
Lets make all test results public, put them on a professional athlete's register, and include whether they have X or Y hormones, or what level of testosterone.
We know there is evidence that Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui are XY because their times slowed considerably when they were required to take testosterone blockers. We also know it because they have visibly obvious male sexual characteristics - greater muscle mass, narrower pelvises, no breasts, Adam's apples, larger jaws, and so on. These are biological changes which occur in XY humans on puberty, as a result of having testes which produce testosterone to much higher levels than XX humans. You do get some XY males which have greater or lesser testosterone insensitivity, leading to non development, for example, of a proper penis. Sometimes you get female children who are, for want of a better word, mutilated at birth due to birth defects, to enable them to better fit in.
None of this should be used to make racist claims that African women look more masculine than African men. There are plenty of black women athletes out there, nearly all of whom look nothing like Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui, because they are XX women.
As for Niyonsaba being svelte and 5 feet 5 - I think your definition of "svelte" needs revision. Niyonsaba simply looks like a typical short muscular boy/man. All 3 are noticeably more chunky all over than their female rivals and elite level 800m runners. You simply do not get elite runners so overweight, unless you pitch club level male runners against elite females. Which is what is happening. Despite their build, all 3 simply don't tire at the point that the females in the race tire.
Stop bringing reason into an obvious case of male privilege.