Coding Bootcamp - Worth It?

IT DEPENDS wrote:

I'm still young enough that I don't care yet. Dime a dozen? Yup. For quality? Nope. The dime a dozen guys get outsourced. Don't be one of them and you're fine. Long hours? Often. Monotonous? Only if you're one of the dime a dozen guys. Great pay? Can be! Great culture? Not often in my experience. Startup bro culture or dull corporate, not much in between. But I have a life outside of work so that doesn't matter. Creativity? Yes,

Posted the young dude who codes for free soda in the refrigerator and outsource wages.

It is absolutely true though, that the coding work experience is very dependent on how good your lead is and how well the project is managed.

As someone else posted, if you've got social skills, you are far more valuable.

The online coding things are an okay way to get started. The best way to get a job is to get involved in an open source project or three. Submit bug fixes and write documentation for smaller projects that have good coding practices. The better projects specifically describe good coding practice.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Posted the young dude who codes for free soda in the refrigerator and outsource wages.

I am 39 and made over $300,000 last year.

I work in IT. I am a software engineer. I do write code (but it's not all I do). I make big bucks.

What they can teach you in a 8 weeks is a dime a dozen. Yes, there is some demand there. Yes, you can make 40-80k out of the gate (depending on where you live), but practically anyone can do it (the coding you can learn in 8 weeks). It's not that difficult. The world will either find a way to automate most of this work, outsource it, or continue to bring in beginners. If you can't move up, you are toast.

To work in IT, you need to be passionate about it. Or, at least, have the aptitude and the desire to become a true expert. This takes years.

A teaching position (with it's guaranteed pension) is far better unless you can do this.

If you think of coding as today's factory job - come in, punch the clock (metaphorically) and return home to rest - you will be sorely disappointed. You should expect to put in 10-12 hour days for 20+ years, constantly keep up on what is new (even if it really isn't new).

Again, unless you want to be the bottom of the ladder, first to be let go type of "coder". In which case, you might find yourself obsolete in less than 10 years.

"I make big bucks"

Said no one, ever, who actually makes big bucks.

See my name, I've been doing it for about a decade. Probably 90% of the people I place are developers. To be frank, I don't go anywhere near the bootcamps when I'm looking for talent. Occasionally I see a resume that pops up that catches my eye. For instance I placed a kid that was a physics undergrad and physics MS from two top universities before he went to a bootcamp. So I knew he had the math background to understand the calculus behind actual software ENGINEERING. He just needs to learn the language. I placed him at $65k two years ago and he's killing it. He'll be making $100k next year if he wants to.

People like yourself looking for something different? Chances are you'll be out of the industry within a year. It's not for everyone. And unless you actually would have done well doing two years of university level calculus, in other words you have the capacity to be an engineer, you won't progress career wise.

So I'm not trying to be a buzzkill. But the marketing BS I see from these camps is garbage. It's like thinking you can train an engineer who's responsible for designing the airbag system in your car because he can draw pictures in auto cad after 8 weeks of classes.

If you're serious about it, go back to a real school and get your CompSci degree.

Few examples:* Pre Oracle MySQL => Postgres 9 => MariaDB and all the other DB / No SQL babies* C to C# / Java to interpreted languages to things like Scala and Go* CSS 2 to CSS 3 to things like scss and sass* JavaScript ES 3 to JavaScript ES 7* the emerging new JavaScript frameworks* combined JS/CSS compnonet frameworks* apache to NGINX to docker (now Moby) containersMy emphasis here is that you need not know the exact history but rather conceptual reason why trends move one way vs the other. It helps you make better decisions as a developer knowing what you can double down on for tech stack choices. You can't learn this in code camps. Let's concentrate on the wild west of JS for this post. Post jquery JavaScript frameworks keep popping up like mad. How do you know which one is for you or which one to follow? Experience. Code camp won't teach you about what is what and why one is good versus not good. What makes a framework good versus bad? Why do some eventually drop off? Why angularjs 1.x or angular 2 or angular 4? Why Vue and not React or Ember?I think JS (a giant wave of the future) is something you will have a hard time understanding unless you were there from 2007 to now.I don't believe in code camps minus seldom examples like the physics guy Tech Headhunter experienced.

codermccoder wrote:

What do you mean by "You can't substitute a ten year cycle of the changing technology industry"

I've had 2 friends take full time 8 month programs and get good (70-80k) paying gigs right out the gate. The coding camp is 2 months but FAR more intense so probably 4-5 months of that content but more immersive and seemingly way more industry connected.

Answers wrote:

The fact you are placed into a job doesn't mean you'll maintain it. That is the major catch here.

I highly doubt you will be job ready in 9 weeks but the job placement has been incentivized by both the company and the code camp ($$$). Could you go from couch potato to marathon ready in 9 weeks? A similar analogy applies here. You can't substitute a ten year cycle of the changing technology industry after a few weeks of code camp.

That has not been my IT experience at all and no way coders are gone in 10 years. I've been on the same team, doing basically the same type of work for 16 years. And that is not unusual at all in the IT department I work in.

I started out as mainframe programmer writing COBOL 27 years ago and people then were saying COBOL is going away in a few years. Here I am 27 years later still writing COBOL programs and making good money doing it. I guarantee in 10 years COBOL programs will still be used and built.

A coding boot camp can get a person in the door and then they can shape the career they want.

Thanks this helps. This is the one arena where I get such mixed advice. You are right that I am looking for something different but coding/web dev is something that has always interested me and one of the only career pursuits I could see myself changing to. Counter to your example I do have 2 friends that have non technical degrees (psychology and geography) that took an 8 month program and both are now making 6 figures as project managers....

LOLOLOLOLOLOL wrote:

"I make big bucks"

Said no one, ever, who actually makes big bucks.

Says people all the time on anonymous message boards. I would never say this in person.

Clearly it is also all subjective. I make big bucks compared to a teacher. Not so much compared to a Hedge Fund manager.

For the record, I made 200-275k the past 3 years. 150-200k for the 5 years before that. Over 100k for the past 20 years.

Again, compared to a teacher, it's big. Even in the tech word it's good. Especially since I don't work out of NYC or Silicon Valley (or anywhere in the Bay Area), but can I buy my own island? No. A good house, and the ability to retire in my late 50's, early 60's (which, at 56, I'm already getting to....and, yes, ageism is an issue in tech).

There's lots of money to be made in software - IF you are good. If not, you'll do okay. For a while. Eventually, you'll move to QA or management or out of the industry.

codermccoder wrote:

Thanks this helps. This is the one arena where I get such mixed advice.

You are right that I am looking for something different but coding/web dev is something that has always interested me and one of the only career pursuits I could see myself changing to.

Counter to your example I do have 2 friends that have non technical degrees (psychology and geography) that took an 8 month program and both are now making 6 figures as project managers....

I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't get a job. But more to where you'd mostly likely go career wise. If you're competing for a promotion with a guy that has a traditional background in software dev, he's going to get the promotion. Like someone else said, you'll probably end up in QA or management. Not terrible places to be you might missing your pension and summers off at that point. Best of luck either way.

" If you're competing for a promotion with a guy that has a traditional background in software dev, he's going to get the promotion"

To be fair, talent does matter. If you can become good, then you can get the promotion. To become good you need a few things: 1) the natural aptitude for problem solving 2) above average intelligence, 3) the desire and ability to work hard, 4) the desire and ability to continue to learn, and 5) reasonably good social and 6) communication skills. Add time to the mix as well. With time, you can catch up to and pass the CS grad if you are more motivated (and he/she is not).

Hopefully, as a teacher, he has communication skills and a desire to continue to learn. Though, strangely, I've meant plenty of teachers who lack both.

It's hard to get a legit first software engineering jobs nowadays unless you have all of the following

* The ability to solve math puzzles on-the-spot, fast

* A Computer Science or closely related degree

* At least 1 internship; 2 is becoming the norm

* Personal projects to show off

* Industry vocabulary to use during interviews (e.g. "quick-and-distry solution", "code smell", "technical debt", etc.).

* You're not old

* You have prior professional experience (I know this sounds like a Catch-22, because it is)

* You are well-versed in an operating system (e.g. you can do everything through the command line faster than with the mouse)

I know someone here is going to say that they know someone who had zero experience and read a book and got hired by Google in a week, but, even if true, which I doubt, it's a rare exception to the rule. Most software engineers underexaggerate the level of experience they had before getting their first job, so as to make themselves seem smarter. The egos of most software engineers are huuuuuuuge and a lot of the Silicon Valley firms are like exclusive clubs or sororities.

Forgetting 95% of what went on with javascript from 2007 to now is probably the best thing.

My son is attending a boot camp right now. Tuition paid (after a deposit) is a percentage of your first year salary so they provide assistance in your job search. He also is finishing his CS degree so I'll let you know where it leads him. Fingers crossed of course.

hey, guys, where I can find an an outsource for my development team? Simply I've built my own dedicated development team and I need one more person

This is a completely inaccurate assessment of compensation in technology. As a technology executive at one of the largest companies in the world with broad insight into hiring, compensation, budgets etc. I can very much promise you that this dude has no idea what he is talking about.

highhoppingworm wrote:

This is a completely inaccurate assessment of compensation in technology. As a technology executive at one of the largest companies in the world with broad insight into hiring, compensation, budgets etc. I can very much promise you that this dude has no idea what he is talking about.

It would seem to me that 200k + as a developer is pretty rarified air, even in the major tech areas. In my experience (again, not on the coasts), 120k is pretty easy to get, and the further you go above that, the more specialized knowledge or less coding you are going to be doing. I've had to remain at the same company for almost 20 years now just to hit 140k, and technically I'm not a full time developer anymore, although for the current project I'm on, I have been able to code most of the time.

buddy, how much do you pay to each of your workers? By the way, what pricing model do you use? Do you pay for the done work or for separately for each hour of work? And in general, what's the most reliable pricing model in your situation?

brainstorm21 wrote:

buddy, how much do you pay to each of your workers? By the way, what pricing model do you use? Do you pay for the done work or for separately for each hour of work? And in general, what's the most reliable pricing model in your situation?

Hello, fellow developer, it is hard understanding all these thing when you are more into coding, rather than making financial plans and looking for the best results, right? I've looked through a lot of information on internet when I had my first couple of projects, I also asked for people with a lot of experience in the field, and the answer was always the same. The best pricing model doesn't exist, that's why there are a pretty large variety of them, It is important to know them very well, so you will know in what situation what pricing model to apply for the best result for you, and possible for the client. Don't forget to also think everything thoroughly every detail, because when you finish the project, you can have problems with some clients. There is an article with a lot of useful information of this topic, so you can visit site and check for yourself what you need and what is good for the project you have in mind right now

Best of luck to you!