Zach Miller Ultra Runner - Possible Doper or Proof of Development Possibilities??

This was not a super steep or technical trail.

One can be a "beast" and "work hard" and still dope.

What kind of dope would a guy take if he was living off the grid at 10,000 feet?

Would a UPS guy run up the mountain and deliver the drugs?

So what exactly do you expect to accomplish by putting your completely innocent question out there? I'm sure you're "just sayin" and you're not REALLY saying Zach is doping. You're just doing your part by making sure we all keep everyone under a microscope. Thanks buddy.

I, and I'm sure Zach, really appreciate you speaking up and throwing out baseless accusations about a fellow runner. Let me tell ya...this is a great way to get to the bottom of something.

Instead of trying to feel better about yourself by feeding the sharks on the internet troll forum, where your opinion seeks to feed nothing but your own ego, how about you ask some questions first. Hey, maybe even email Zach or facebook friend him to learn about his history. Since you seem so "scientific", you should probably do some research. Ask direct questions of Zach about his training history and then come to your conclusion.

Noooooooo....don't do what I just suggested. In fact, I take it back. Go ahead and keep throwing out your "questions" and "theories" that again, do nothing but feed your own ego because you'll get followers on the troll forum. Don't actually go to the source, that would be stupid. You're clearly smarter than that.

Wait...how about you give us your name. That would be awesome. I'm sure Zach would love to answer your questions. He doesn't seem like a violent guy. What would YOU have to lose?

Either way, good job weeding out the dopers, lol. I'm sure you've accomplished a lot with your post. I apologize to the other non-bottom feeders around here for feeding your ego.

0/10

Do you even ultra run bro?

Zach lately looks like a bison. The rest of the field look like gazelles.

Go back to your powder puff treadmill and little oval tracks made out of wubber fo yo soft wittle wegs.

The adults are having a race.

Responses to comments:

A long history of fast guys under performing in ultras exists. The learning curve is steep – painfully steep at times – ask Walmsley about his Western States 100 this year. However for those individuals who make it through the curve, raw speed coupled with specific training (i.e. big vert and trails) wins out the majority of the time therefore.

Doping makes it way to very under developed countries with far inferior postal services than Pike Peak. This neither proves nor disproves anything.

I feel it right to give the medals, the titles, and the money to those who play by the rules. Let me clarify that I have presented data and questions, not specific claims about Zach doping. Of which no one has come close to answering any of these questions.

I follow high school & NCAA cross country and track, pro track, road running, mountain running, ultra running, and have participated in all of these categories except pro track. I have never seen anyone improve as much as Zach has improved after spending 4 year running in college. Olympic marathoner Brian Sell stands out as someone who used hard work to make huge improvements. However he has a back story that many people can vouch for – he was extremely under developed in high school. His progression of times from senior year in college (sub 29 10k which is equivalent to 2:14 marathon) to a 2:10 marathoner is much less than Zach's progression.

I have very little to gain by learning the facts of Zach’s background – certainly not an ego boosting activity for me. We have a completely inadequate doping control system in pro track and a non-existent doping control system in ultra running. I feel it our obligation to patrol our own ranks.

Again, if there is a great back story on why Zach was so under developed in college – let’s hear about it. No one has offered the least bit here.

The very fact that you go to a public forum to "ask questions" shows that this is about YOU and not about Zach. Go to the source and ask him about his background. Or, go to Irunfar and ask them to ask him your questions.

Since you're so hell bent on "facts" and "data", if someone came here and gave you second hand information about Zach and his running background, how would that help you? It's second hand information. Not facts.

"not specific claims about Zach doping" Riiiiighhht, lol. Again, why would you come to this forum for information about someone that's so approachable. Why is it our responsibility to tell YOU about Zach so YOU can feel confident he is or isn't doping. Do you think his UPS guy is going to come on here and say "oh yeah, I deliver dope to him all the time!". Problem solved!!! You're a genius!!!

Again, if this was about anything other than feeding your own ego, you'd go ask Zach yourself. Otherwise, what exact information do you expect to hear here to solve any problem? Could it be that you're just trying to bring down someone because you're weak? Do you need our attention from the forum because you can't go out and create your own conversations?

Get a life dude. You know the cowardly game you're playing. And again, I apologize to the others here and Zach for prolonging this.

I'm done and I hope others here quit feeding your ego as well.

Zach ran 5 minute miles in college.

Zach ran 7 minute miles today.

Looks to me like he has gotten slower.

Lol @ the image of Zach trying to dope in a remote cabin with his sister and brother-in-law in close quarters.

The sport is seriously doped, but this is ridonkulous.

Dude seriously you are one jealous loser. Really you're mad hes improving? The guy went from a guy who ran up and down stairs on a cruise ship to living on Pikes Peak and training like an absolute monster and you can't figure out why he's getting better/

The guy wasn't training for shit at first, he now runs 100+ mpw and lives at 11,000 ft on a mountain.

Yo Dik Head....

Here's why Zach sucked in college...

http://ultra.irunfar.com/wp-content/uploads/Zach-Miller-21.jpg

He probably struggled with proper body weight and muscle balance until recently as can been seen in google images.

Now go back to your hole.

"I like to run and split wood"---- zach miller

http://running.competitor.com/2016/08/video/day-life-trail-runner-zach-miller_154948

Yea this dude is not doping.

Even an ultrajogger like Krupicka can beat most of those fast college guys over a technical 100 miler.

So Krupicka was a doper?

Yep it makes sense!

If this isn't a sign of drug use, I don't know what else is -

https://twitter.com/iRunFar/status/805127365349281792

Eh,, wrote:

Altitude runner 11,500 ft. wrote:

Here is a question:

Let's take the top 3 guys at TNF 50 mile run and have them all run a marathon on a 400m track against Eliud Kipchoge and Kenenisa Bekele.

How many times will they be lapped by Kipchoge and Bekele?

???

And the relevance of this is?

F@cking idiot...

So dumb. Better yet, let's put Kipchoge & Bekele on the starting blocks vs Bolt & see how many strides they can match him.

I made one joke comparing Tapia with Miller and the post is removed, yet this ridiculous, completely unfounded accusation thread is allowed to stand. Oh, but Zach is an ultra guy so fair game?!

I know Zach personally (and raced behind him yesterday where he kicked my butt...as did lots of guys..and of course he won...it was a great race). He is probably the last person in the sport I would every suspect to dope. Like ever.

He ran a great race yesterday and beat a ton of "quality track guys" who are faster at shorter distances. The thing is, your track 10km time doesn't always translate to being the best ultra-mountain runner...esp in mountain environments. It for sure helps, but it's not a direct translation.

People have different ranges/talents...a lot of guys that run a sub 4:00 miles and sub 13:30 5k's couldn't run under 2:10 in a marathon....a lot might even run over 2:20 even! Mountain running doesn't care about flat running track/road speed if one doesn't have the tools to climb.

For sure Zach does not have the highest Vo2max, and likely couldn't run a road marathon runner 2:20 even (like lots of guys he beats can). But in a hilly mountain-trail ultra of 40-100 miles he is very dangerous. That is where his talent is and he beats people there.

Trails and mountains can be a great equalizer... It's being able to climb up hills at 7:00 mile pace when you are 30 or 40 miles deep and 8,000' of climbing into a race....that is very different from running a track or road race.

At Mt. WA (7.5 miles, all uphill) or even Pikes Peak, Zach my never crack 62-min or 2:15, but those races are too short for him and require too much Vo2max power.

Zach has super strong legs from training hard in the mountains...he works hard and he fuels well (usually doesn't seem to have stomach issues). It's not like he is totally smashing CRs and running away with huge margins of victory....I mean over the years he has run 6:09 at Lake Sonoma, has won TNF in 6:14 (don't compare this year's course to previous course times even), and lead most of UTMB...but not at a totally insane pace or something that has been historically "unreasonable."

At the high end/front pack these races are coming down to very close margins...a few seconds here in there in aid stations and a few minutes between places at the end. Hayden for sure had the potential to win and it was very, very close.

The fact that Hawks pushed Miller so hard in his first 50-miler demonstrates that Miller is excellent but not superhuman. I just wish Walmsley would have been on that starting line. The three of the battling it out would have been even more epic. It kind sucks that probably the two most prestigious 50s (JFK/TNF) are so close together.

Maybe they could agree to race it out the first 50 of Western States haha.

You're looking at the numbers times in too linear of a fashion. 5km track times and road marathon times don't add up a lot. The hills and mountains and longer distances beyond 26.2 are way harder to "predict." Think of the influence of variable running economy. That is the key. MUT Running is more exponential, and the best track/road runner doesn't always win. If it was a road ultra or something flatter, yeah the track/road guys are more consistent. But the mountains and big hills and lots of elevation change throw people for a loop. Even 2:14 marathoner Max King has struggled to get top 10 in this very race and the guy is a 12km World Mountain Running Champ and placed top 10 at Comrades. But those are all every different events. I agree with you though, the sport is not clean. There are for sure guys doping (and some have been caught with EPO already).But the fact os the matter is that Zach was very good when he started ultras...he has improved slowly and steadily, but not by huge margins. He beat me and Rob Krar head to head at the Lake Sonoma 50 two years ago in his second 50-miler ever. He lead UTMB for 75 or so miles this year but he wasn't even close to CR pace and he blew up trying (a valiant effort that was gutsy though and I really respect him for still finishing so hard as that would probably totally break me).His run at TNF50 yesterday was very impressive and he beat a lot of guys (including me by a ton as I totally bonked trying to stick with his pace), but in my opinion, that would not been indicative of doping at all knowing his background and the history of this race. The course this year was 49 miles with around 10,400' of climbing (in other years it's been 49.5 miles and 51.5 miles with mud). We ran on more fire roads this year compared to single track. This year weather conditions were ripe for fast times and the footing was solid. Hayden was the perfect comp for Zach to push the pace with and they battled all day. It was super impressive to watch as they pulled away and it was a great race for both of them. I think Hayden has the potential to beat Zach...but it might be pretty close a lot of the time and it comes down to the details of the MUT Running event.For example, Hayden made the US mountain running team at 12km (a team Zach probably couldn't make the year), and was 4th in the world at that event. But that's a lot different than a 50-miler in the mountains/hills. Zach is a good honest, hard working kid. There is for sure doping going on in MUT Running, but Zach is the very last person that I'd ever suspect.

HopingI'mWrong wrote:

Does anyone have examples of someone who has developed from a >15 min 5k runner in college to a 14flat min 5k post-collegiate? This type of improvement is similar to going from 2:27 to 2:15 in a road marathon. I know loads of athletes who have made post collegiate improvements that would equate to 15-30 secs off their 5k time (6-8min off marathon). I can think of no examples of anyone dropping 60-75 secs (12min off marathon).

Andy Butchart fastest 5000m ever as of 18 July 2014 at age 22: 14:49

Andy Butchart, new PR in the Olympic final on 20 August 2016 at age 24: 13:08

101 second improvement in two seasons, not bad