Who squanders / develops the most talent? Colorado, Stanford, Oregon or UCLA?

almost_as_slow_as_me wrote:

Colorado's 6 and 7 really stand out, especially when compared to Stanford's.

Colorado:

Sixth man -- 32. Reilly Friedman R-Fr. 4:21/9:21

Seventh Man -- 42. Christian Martin Jr. 4:26/9:36

Stanford:

Sixth man -- 34. Alex Ostberg So. 9th FL, 8:43 3200

Seventh Man -- 36. Blair Hurlock Jr. 8th FL, 8:58 3200

Christian Martin's times were ran at altitude in Colorado. So likely 4:17ish and 9:16ish at sea level. I don't mean to put either him or Wetmore down but just wanted clear facts to be out there for fair comparison..

Regardless, Martin has developed very well under Wetmore's tutelage and wasn't exceptional in high school although a very talented runner. Great to see.

the Nike Oregon Project

Altitudetimes wrote:

almost_as_slow_as_me wrote:

Colorado's 6 and 7 really stand out, especially when compared to Stanford's.

Colorado:

Sixth man -- 32. Reilly Friedman R-Fr. 4:21/9:21

Seventh Man -- 42. Christian Martin Jr. 4:26/9:36

Stanford:

Sixth man -- 34. Alex Ostberg So. 9th FL, 8:43 3200

Seventh Man -- 36. Blair Hurlock Jr. 8th FL, 8:58 3200

Christian Martin's times were ran at altitude in Colorado. So likely 4:17ish and 9:16ish at sea level. I don't mean to put either him or Wetmore down but just wanted clear facts to be out there for fair comparison..

Regardless, Martin has developed very well under Wetmore's tutelage and wasn't exceptional in high school although a very talented runner. Great to see.

To expound on that, if he would have run 4:17/9:16 at sea level, a kid like Martin very much at a minimum would have been an 8:57-9:00 kid his senior year had he grown up in the SoCal Section. The kids produced at altitude are a little misleading if you don't take into consideration what they would have been if they grew up in a place like SoCal or another high school hotbed for running.

To expound on that, if he would have run 4:17/9:16 at sea level, a kid like Martin very much at a minimum would have been an 8:57-9:00 kid his senior year had he grown up in the SoCal Section. The kids produced at altitude are a little misleading if you don't take into consideration what they would have been if they grew up in a place like SoCal or another high school hotbed for running.

Why do you assume that growing up in SoCal would make these runners have better times overall? Do you think the competition is that much better? Or what other factors do you think would support your theory.

I don't think I agree but I am curious as to why you believe this.

More opportunities to run fast, period. The bottom line is that in an environment like SoCal you get dragged on your azz to fast times just by the sheer numbers of great invitational meets you get to run in throughout the average season. A 9:36 kid isn't doing too much traveling to chase fast high school times and would most likely have to just make do with whatever in-state opportunities come your way. Not the case in SoCal. An undeveloped 9:35 kid can make a jump every weekend until they are knocking on sub 9:00's door. Happens every year. Just check the yearly list of kids that go from 9:30 to 9:05 with regularity.

yeah, I wasn't even thinking of considering a decrease in VDOT. Sure, run times may be slower, but I was only looking to reward increases and not include decreases, as decreases may be captured enough in the later variables to make it redundant, whereas increases in VDOT, in my opinion, are worth redundantly factoring in.

doo doo wrote:

You want to find who squanders the most in Pac12, but don't mention Cal? Or is it just a given?

Yeah I'm a Cal fan and a NY Knicks fan and I'm honestly unsure which team makes me more depressed.

Sea Level Reality wrote:

More opportunities to run fast, period. The bottom line is that in an environment like SoCal you get dragged on your azz to fast times just by the sheer numbers of great invitational meets you get to run in throughout the average season. A 9:36 kid isn't doing too much traveling to chase fast high school times and would most likely have to just make do with whatever in-state opportunities come your way. Not the case in SoCal. An undeveloped 9:35 kid can make a jump every weekend until they are knocking on sub 9:00's door. Happens every year. Just check the yearly list of kids that go from 9:30 to 9:05 with regularity.

Could you point me to this list? I'd be interested to see it for sure.

messinat wrote:

props.. wrote:

I also ran there! =) It's not bad... just not the best.

The running around UCLA is fine.

They probably just hop in the van everyday and drive someplace to run.

props... wrote:

Props to Coach Braden. He seems to be building that program back up despite the inherent location limitation. (nothing against westwood just that its not all that distance runner friendly)

What would be interesting is to see what school/coach is able to develop guys/girls who are not top HS kids. Coach Towne at Chico does a great job but I am sure there are several others.

That's easy if you look outside the PAC12; it's Syracuse. They won XC Nats last year with a team of guys who all grew up within a half-day's drive of 'Cuse and none of them were star recruits coming out of HS. Coach Fox is doing stuff the right way up there.

RG Bannister wrote:

props... wrote:

Props to Coach Braden. He seems to be building that program back up despite the inherent location limitation. (nothing against westwood just that its not all that distance runner friendly)

What would be interesting is to see what school/coach is able to develop guys/girls who are not top HS kids. Coach Towne at Chico does a great job but I am sure there are several others.

That's easy if you look outside the PAC12; it's Syracuse. They won XC Nats last year with a team of guys who all grew up within a half-day's drive of 'Cuse and none of them were star recruits coming out of HS. Coach Fox is doing stuff the right way up there.

For the most part I'd agree, but Knight was the Canadian equivalent of Fisher coming out of high school. Hehir was a 9 flat, but his progression was impressive nonetheless. Bennie went from 4:14/9:07 to top 10 at Nats in 2 years which is likely the most impressive coaching Fox has pulled off.

This thread goes under the assumption high school times equals full talent potiental. You would need to do a training/lifestyle analysis on each athlete to even begin to judge their potiental of growth from high school to college.

it's also faulty to compare track PRs to XC because the races are different.

Chjvxcbb, thank you to someone who finally speaks like they know what they are talking about on here.

Whatever happened to Carter Blunt at UCLA? His HS times were far superior to some of those Bruin times.

almost_as_slow_as_me wrote:

Colorado's 6 and 7 really stand out, especially when compared to Stanford's.

Colorado:

Sixth man -- 32. Reilly Friedman R-Fr. 4:21/9:21

Seventh Man -- 42. Christian Martin Jr. 4:26/9:36

Stanford:

Sixth man -- 34. Alex Ostberg So. 9th FL, 8:43 3200

Seventh Man -- 36. Blair Hurlock Jr. 8th FL, 8:58 3200

What does the 6th and 7th man have to do with anything? A guy scoring 32nd at Pac 12s is not helping a national contender.

The only name that really jumps out at me when I look at the guys in the top 5 is Neuman for Oregon.

Stanford ruins it's star recruits I mean top 1-2 class every single year and they suck at Track. Oregon makes it's recruits faster and gets national Championships and a lot of runner up and 3rd places with not even half the talent that Stanford wastes. Colorado makes them faster at least in Cross and I have no idea about UCLA they like Stanford hardly score any points in either indoors or outdoors at NCAA's. I think Oregon can sweep indoors and outdoors this year at NCAA I just hope they can find a 4th 100 runner on the women's side cause the Ducks have the 3 fastest 100 runners in the Country this coming year Washington,Cunliffe and Stevens but i'm not even sure they have a 4 women on the team this year that can run the 100??????/

living at altitude = wind aided

i.e., advantage not related to coaching expertise