ageism wrote:
There is no way requiring women to reduce testosterone is going to last through court cases and challenges.
Women already have low levels of testosterone and don't need to reduce it.
Only men would have limits, to have similar levels of testosterone to women.
why doesn't that very experiment, the IAAF's forcing Semenya to take testosterone lowering medications and her performances slowing/then her going off them and her performances improving (I believe that Semenya did this to some extent also before several other World/Olympic races, to judge by the times and apparent effort in some of them), show that natural testosterone improves performance to the standards of CAS?
The official statement released to the press by the Court of Arbitration for Sport :
http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_3759_FINAL.pdf
They state:
"In the absence of such evidence, the CAS Panel was unable to conclude that hyperandrogenic female athletes may benefit from such a significant performance advantage".
Well, in my humble opinion, this was a classic case of the Court of Arbitration for Sport 'kicking the can down the road'. They basically are saying 'look we don't know' so lets re-visit this in two years. Or more likely 'we don't want to make a decision on this right now, because this is too controversial to tackle'.
C'mon really? You don't know if higher levels of testosterone improve athletic performance? Of course they do! What evidence are they requiring? Here is the evidence --> Semenya is running 1:55 without her testosterone lowering meds. When she was on them, she was running close to 2:00.
Caster Semenya chooses to compete, knowing that her higher levels of testosterone are giving her a clear advantage. She has refused to normalise her testosterone levels. That . . . is a clear case of the violation of fair play.
Throw political correctness in the garbage where it belongs.
1992ofsaa wrote:
Bishop deserved the gold medal. She is an outstanding runner.
The unfair advantage that Caster Semenya has, can be safely taken away from her by surgically removing the endogenous testicles. That would bring her testosterone levels back down to normal levels. She has refused to do that.
The other way is to have her take medications that lower her testosterone levels. She was doing this. That is why her times slowed to about 2:00 for the 800m. But recently the IAAF discontinued that requirement. So she stopped taking those testosterone lowering meds. Now her testosterone levels are back up again and she is running 1:55.
This article explains this reversal of the rule:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/17/caster-semenya-comeback-rio-olympics-gold"the existing hyperandrogenism regulations law was suspended for two years – allowing any female athlete on testosterone‑suppressing medication to come off it."
So there you go. Semenya is no longer on those meds. As a result her testosterone levels are back up again. Her previous 2:00 for the 800m would not even make the semi-finals. Her 1:55 for the 800m won the Olympic gold medal. Such is the difference that this new IAAF rule has made for Semenya.
For Bishop to win the gold medal, second and third need to be shown to be men as well. Now, third place, the Kenyan looks like a man, but second place might just be an ugly doper.
All elites had some kind of genetic advantage over 99% of competitors. You can't choose who you compete against.
Silent guy wrote:
I think an answer to this may well be a deafening silence. Empty stands at certain 800m races would be a statement every time. If you think it's wrong, don't support it. Don't watch. Don't write about it. Don't give it any air time on TV. Don't give it the light of day. Stay silent. Empty the stands. If that were to happen, how long do you think it would actually go on for?
Yeah... I'm not sure if you've followed the sport for long, but empty stands and low viewership wouldn't be much of a change...
1992ofsaa wrote:
The official statement released to the press by the Court of Arbitration for Sport
http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_3759_FINAL.pdfThey state: "In the absence of such evidence, the CAS Panel was unable to conclude that hyperandrogenic female athletes may benefit from such a significant performance advantage".
I don't get what CAS disallowed, (1) testing of testosterone levels, (2) testosterone‑suppressing medication, or (3) both of these?
as Dr Marjolaine Viret, a Swiss-based attorney in sports law who frequently deals with CAS arbitration explains: “The decisive factor for the CAS panel was whether testosterone above the 10nmol/L threshold set by the IAAF gave female athletes a competitive advantage over their fellow competitors, which brought them within a range comparable to male athletes. Here the burden of proof was declared to be on the IAAF.â€
the existing hyperandrogenism regulations law was suspended for two years – allowing any [male or] female athlete on testosterone‑suppressing medication to come off it.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/17/caster-semenya-comeback-rio-olympics-gold
Apparently they definitely banned testosterone‑suppressing medication, which is fine with me, but if they banned T testing, then I don't get why they did that, nor why they felt there was any basis to prohibit it. Perhaps they said it was discriminatory toward women, but if that's the cause, so would be pregnancy tests, women's restrooms, women's shoes, and so on. To the contrary, such testing is protective of women.
But did CAS ban testosterone testing, or just testosterone‑suppressing medication?
If CAS did ban T testing, and if the ban was based on claims of discrimination, the IAAF could require T testing for both females and males, set a reasonable demarcating barrier in between female and male average levels, and disallow anyone above such a demarcating level to compete in women's events.
Thoughts, answers, explanations?
Possessing the weak wrote:
All elites had some kind of genetic advantage over 99% of competitors. You can't choose who you compete against.
Wrong. If you're male, you can't choose to compete against females.
Sez wrote:
Wrong. If you're male, you can't choose to compete against females.
However, CAS has decided otherwise.
Semenya has shown absolutely no class or morals whatsoever.
Look at her showing off after her race, flexing her muscles and brushing off imaginary dust off her shoulders. Sticking out her tongue for the cameras etc.
Also, she knows that she has three times the level of testosterone than the average female. If she had any morals or ethics or class, she would normalize her testosterone levels with medication or surgery. But she won't.
How can she even be proud of her Olympic medal? Is that really how South Africa wants to win Olympic medals? By finding hermaphrodites from rural villages and throwing them into the women races?
You have these PC white men on other forums trying to raise their status and reputation in their AWMDRS (all white male distance runner sororities). They are praising Semenya and saying that she belongs in the same category as 'the greats'. It makes me want to vomit.
1992ofsaa wrote:
Semenya has shown absolutely no class or morals whatsoever.
Look at her showing off after her race, flexing her muscles and brushing off imaginary dust off her shoulders. Sticking out her tongue for the cameras etc.
Also, she knows that she has three times the level of testosterone than the average female. If she had any morals or ethics or class, she would normalize her testosterone levels with medication or surgery. But she won't.
How can she even be proud of her Olympic medal? Is that really how South Africa wants to win Olympic medals? By finding hermaphrodites from rural villages and throwing them into the women races?
You have these PC white men on other forums trying to raise their status and reputation in their AWMDRS (all white male distance runner sororities). They are praising Semenya and saying that she belongs in the same category as 'the greats'. It makes me want to vomit.
She has more than 3 times the T level (10) or she never would have had to take drugs to get below 10. She is likely far over 10 now that she stopped taking them.
She sure put the smack down on Bishop, jozwik, sharp didn't she?
The crux of the issue is really whether you believe Caster is more a man or more a woman.
She has no ovaries, no womb, no breasts and no secondary sexual characteristics of a woman.
She does have internal testicles, more muscles than David Rudisha and a wife.
So what's missing is perhaps the fusion of her labia majors I into a phallus.....although I wouldn't be surprised.
It's a terrible shame for her but it is not fair to the rest of the field.
Semenya has shown absolutely no class or morals whatsoever. Look at her showing off after her races, flexing her muscles and brushing off imaginary dust off her shoulders. Sticking out her tongue for the cameras etc.
Also, she knows that she has three times the level of testosterone than the average female. If she had any morals, ethics or class, she would normalize her testosterone levels with medication or surgery . . . or quit the sport . . . or compete in the mens category. But she won’t do any of these. Semenya has every right to compete if she normalizes her testosterone levels (either by ruling or by personal choice). Otherwise, she does not belong in these races. It is a travesty of justice, occurring in the name of political correctness.
How can she even be proud of her Olympic medal? Is that really how African nations want to win Olympic medals? By finding intersex/hermaphrodites from rural villages and throwing them into the women races?
Semenya has no ovaries, no uterus, no breasts and no secondary sexual characteristics of a woman. Semenya married a woman. I don’t see how on earth Semenya fits the description of a woman and why on earth she should be allowed to compete against normal women.
This truly is the end of women sports. In a few years if this trend continues, all world class competitions will be taken over by intersex / hermaphrodite athletes and regular woman will not stand a chance of winning, no matter how hard they train.
You have these PC white men on this forum trying to raise their status and reputation in their AWMDRS (all white male distance runner sorority). They are praising Semenya and saying that she belongs in the same category as 'the greats'. It makes me want to vomit.
I think trying to raise your reputation by being super politically correct among the AWMDRS (all white male distance runner sorority) is not only clearly disingenuous, but really just empty talk. Such talk is cheap.
Put your words into action and recruit some minority runners, or better yet, some intersex runners into your all white running clubs, then we will see if you really are truly supportive of such athletes. I have not seen this happen since I started running in Ontario in 1989 . . . and likely never will.
I personally think the only time the AWMDRS has any contact with a woman of colour is when they pour a bottle of Aunt Jemima maple syrup over their morning pancakes.
But alas, they just report your post to Adam Stacey and he conveniently deletes it and then sends an email stating ‘your post does not contribute to the forum’. What he really should say is ‘your post is not PC enough for our AWMDRS forum’. All this in Canada - a country that (supposedly) has freedom of speech in their bill of rights. Not anymore thanks to good ‘ol Justin Trudeau.
jjjjjj wrote:
why doesn't that very experiment, the IAAF's forcing Semenya to take testosterone lowering medications and her performances slowing/then her going off them and her performances improving (I believe that Semenya did this to some extent also before several other World/Olympic races, to judge by the times and apparent effort in some of them), show that natural testosterone improves performance to the standards of CAS?
At the time of CAS, they didn't know she would get fast again. When they go back, this will be part of their argument. She should have stayed slow for 2 years to show the T suppression had no effect
1992ofsaa wrote:
Semenya has shown absolutely no class or morals whatsoever.
I've gotten a totally different feel from Semenya. I take it you haven't watched (m)any interviews with her? She seems nice.
1992ofsaa wrote:
Look at her showing off after her race, flexing her muscles and brushing off imaginary dust off her shoulders. Sticking out her tongue for the cameras etc.
Awh, is someone angry? Maybe she should have done a twirl -- would that have been more appropriate?
macdaddy wrote:
1992ofsaa wrote:Semenya has shown absolutely no class or morals whatsoever.
I've gotten a totally different feel from Semenya. I take it you haven't watched (m)any interviews with her? She seems nice.
1992ofsaa wrote:
Look at her showing off after her race, flexing her muscles and brushing off imaginary dust off her shoulders. Sticking out her tongue for the cameras etc.
Awh, is someone angry? Maybe she should have done a twirl -- would that have been more appropriate?
She seems nice? EVERYBODY was saying that about Pistorius prior to him murdering his girlfriend. One of the hallmarks of psychopathy is being able to turn on the charm at a moment's notice.
Another hallmark would be stealing money and fame from your fellow competitors by virtue of possessing a well-known unfair advantage. What Semenya is doing by competing in the women's division with testosterone levels many times higher than his/her competitors is completely contrary to basic rules of sportsmanship. A non-psychopath would not be able to look his/her fellow competitors in the eye.
To 1992ofssa: Good work on Trackie! I rarely bother with that site anymore but I did take a peak at the Semenya thread and was shocked by the P.C. tone and general dismissiveness of a lot of the comments. I definitely lost respect for some of the posters there.
My impression is that Semenya is an opportunist, her manager/"coach" a grifter, and the RSA federation is complicit in this looting of the loopholes they have found and exploited. The PC movement and politicos are convenient idiots in this Shakespearian-level tragicomedy.
1992ofsaa wrote:
I debated with myself as to wether I should publicly state my opinion about this. Today I have decided yes I should.
Caster Semenya is not a normal woman and thus should not be allowed to compete at the Olympics.
This was my original stance and I have gained reassurance from reading articles from others who seem to share a similar opinion.
First, I will share why I think she should not be allowed: plain and simple she is a hermaphrodite. Now I don't know what is the politically correct term this month, and it does not really matter. But bottom line is that she has internal testicles. Those testes secrete testosterone that is three times the level of the average woman.
As a result she has no female secondary sexual characteristics, her voice sounds like a man, she looks like a man and runs faster (almost effortlessly) then the best female 800m runners on the planet.
Now, since my opinion is simply not enough, I will share some excerpts from articles I have read about this issue:
[1] Denise Lewis of the Telegraph wrote here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2016/08/16/caster-semenya-competing-at-rio-olympics-2016-is-not-fair-on-any/“I am no scientist and I don’t understand all the intricacies of how different substances enhance performance, but you cannot deny that if someone has inflated testosterone levels, it must give them an advantage . . . the excess testosterone must be helping her and I’d be lying to say I wouldn’t feel aggrieved if I was one of her rivals.â€
[2] World famous and best-selling Canadian author Malcolm Gladwell (who is a former OFSAA champion in the 1500m himself) in this article:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/caster-semenya-and-the-logic-of-olympic-competitionwas asked ‘Do you think (Caster Semenya) should be allowed to compete as a woman?
Gladwell’s answer was:
“Of course not! And why do I say of course not? Because not a single track-and-field fan that I’m aware of disagrees with me. I cannot tell you how many arguments I’ve gotten into over the past two weeks about this, and I’ve been astonished at how many people fail to appreciate the athletic significance of this. Remember, this is a competitive issue, not a human-rights issue.â€
Gladwell went on to say:
"Semenya is equipped with an extraordinary and anomalous genetic advantage. The previous policy of international track was that she could compete as a woman if she took medication to lower her testosterone to “normal†levels. That restriction has now been lifted. And so we have a situation where one woman, born with the biological equivalent of a turbocharger, is now being allowed to “compete†against the ninety-nine per cent of women who have no such advantage.â€
In Conclusion:
this is not an issue of racism. I am the first one to call out racism. But protesting against Caster Semenya’s participation at the Olympics is not a race issue. If she was white, or even from India (like Dutee Chand), I would say the exact same thing.
( I did not speak publicly about Dutee Chand and her case of hyperandrogenism because she did not take a medal away from anyone, she was eliminated in the opening heat of the 100m. )
A post-apartheid, hypersensitive South African government is making this a race issue, and that is wrong and the IAAF and Seb Coe should not be so scared of them.
Finally, this is also not an issue of sexism. As a strong feminist, I am the first to stand up for women rights. Growing up in Canada I have seen the significant progress that women have made in sports. But this is not an issue of women rights.
It is an issue of an unfair advantage, that Caster Semenya continuously takes advantage of. Only to take away a medal from real women - like Canadian Melissa Bishop - who have dedicated their lives to the sport and to the motto of fair play.
Want a level playing field? Ask Semenya to consult a good surgeon who can remove those internal testicles, thus normalizing her testosterone levels. But . . . she will never do that.
Yes it's your opinion but it does not mean it's a viable opinion that others share or really even want to hear.
Crawl back under your rock
wild rose country wrote:
macdaddy wrote:I've gotten a totally different feel from Semenya. I take it you haven't watched (m)any interviews with her? She seems nice.
Awh, is someone angry? Maybe she should have done a twirl -- would that have been more appropriate?
She seems nice? EVERYBODY was saying that about Pistorius prior to him murdering his girlfriend. One of the hallmarks of psychopathy is being able to turn on the charm at a moment's notice.
Wow. Talk about coming out of left field...
She could be a psychopath OR, call me crazy, she could just be a genuinely good person. I'll bet the latter.
To ‘wild rose country’: Thank you! That forum is just a AWMDRS (all white male distance runner sorority). They all know each other and they delete any post from their forum that is in disagreement with their AWMDRS. That is why our voices are not heard there.
To ‘Run Doctor’: Yes I am actually back living under my rock already! I come out from time to time just to see if there is anything interesting, like the Olympic Games.
To all: awesome forum. I am happy to be here among those who have thrown political correctness in the garbage where it belongs.