If you care about women's sports and the Caster Semenya situation, you MUST read this article

Mutola competed at 3 olympic games (1988, 1992, 1996) that included gender verification testing for women, so if there was an issue presumably it would have been flagged.

i'm curious as to who the author thinks the other two are (5 of eight finalists, 3 are pretty easy to identify: Semenya plus two from World Indoors).

I was not on this forum in 2008, where jelimo dominated the 800m, but I was wondering if Jelimo had ever been accused of being intersex? From her physical appearance, she is definitely not pretty, but she does look like a female. Did the accusation start because of her very fast times?

Weight classes in rowing might be the best analogy. Because of the way drag works in boats, absolute power matters a lot and weight matters little giving larger competitors a huge advantage. To allow normal sized athletes to be competitive, the rules establish weight classes. Ross Tucker is saying that at the simplest level a female sex category can be thought of as a low testosterone "weight class" allowing a large population of people (women with normal T-levels) to be competitive.

At least Mutola dressed and acted like a woman. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. I'm certain semenya niyonsaba wambui are partly men though. It's unfortunate that (very likely) nothing will be done by the incompetent CAS and IOC before Rio, but it will be sorted out or at least altered at some point down the road. Unfortunately, not soon enough as deserving women will be harmed.

Ijustfked2bitchezb4isawu wrote:

At least Mutola dressed and acted like a woman.

I'm certain semenya niyonsaba wambui are partly men though.

Geesh. Two incredibly stupid statements.

The bottom line is that Semenya did not choose to be born with this anomaly, so there is nothing else to say. I do have empathy for "normal" woman competing in this event however, you cant ban a runner because of a birth anomaly. She did nothing wrong, it is out of her control.

i agree about pamela jelimo.there was something very strange about her,and her improvements,and how she literally came from nowhere.i remember shaking my head,and thinking "what tha?" when i saw her win olympic gold.its possible she has an intersex condition,and maria mutola,as well.mutola looked like a transgender rwandan lady i met a couple of times.the brow,jaw,adams apple,voice.kabange mupopo of zambia looks to be intersex,so does the rwandan and kenyan world indoor 800 metre finalists,and dorcas ajok of uganda.

i also questioned ana guevara.if she wasnt mixed gender,she was on high dose steroids.

I am not a SJW but I feel the need to place a few speed bumps on this discussion. I am not sure what can be done, but I do agree that something needs to be done. That said, I feel like there is a bitter tone of blame seeping into this discussion. There is absolutely nothing Caster can do about her situation. It does not good to call her anything but a real woman. Now, should she be able to compete as a woman? I am not sure. I mean, we all have varying levels of testosterone and I am not going to be as good at Football as some huge muscle guy or as good at basketball as someone with a problem with their pituitary gland making them 7'2", but are we going to ban them from playing their respective sports?

I think we need to keep men from identifying as women and joining women's sports, but if you are born and raised a woman with primarily female chromosomes, I am not sure we can start limiting your ability to participate. There is something inherently wrong with that.

rojo wrote:

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Using the term "real women" isn't going to help things at all or the PC police will win this argument. In society, in arguments like this, you don't want to appear to be conservative or intolerant. The future of women's sports depends is at stake here. That's why I think it's really critical that we phrase this argument as a "women's rights issue".

...

You will be MADE to care. -- Erick Erickson

... and so my two hobbies, political science and running stats, finally converge. Let's see if I can use one to help the other.

You correctly point out that the PC police choose the battlefield and the rules of engagement, but then you recommend that we play on their turf and by their rules. You are absolutely right that the real problem is Political Correctness in that it keeps people from stating the obvious, like men and women are different physiologically, and uses intimidation and threats of comparing heretics to those "intolerant conservatives" to silence all opposition, leaving the PC crowd to win by default.

If we play by the rigged PC rules, we will lose. That is certain.

The real enemy is not Caster or people with mixed physiology and it's not even Obama's recent decree on gender identity. The real enemy is Political Correctness which makes it impossible to even discuss the issue in a sane fashion.

Political Correctness has one glaring weakness, it denies a reality that everyone can clearly see:

Islam IS a dangerous medieval political movement.

White American Christians ARE NOT causing all the problems in the world.

Environmentalists have been WRONG from Malthus through today's AGW religion.

Illegal immigrants ARE NOT all perfect citizens.

Men ARE different than women.

etc...

So the PC crowd tells the lie and then demonizes and ostracizes anyone who dares to challenge the lie. It is essentially rule by terror. They only win if we all play by their rule book and go along with their lies.

Trump is showing us how to fight this in his own crude way. Simply don't accept the lie and tell the truth, and people will rally to you. In this case all you need to do is state the simple truth :

"Men and women have a different physiology. Women can't compete with men in any sport where strength and speed are determining factors. They will lose every time. If we want women to compete on a level playing field then we have to discriminate against anyone who has an unfair advantage due to raised testosterone levels or male chromosomes."

Then point out that merely "identifying" as a woman does not change a man's testosterone levels or chromosomes, and that anyone who does this should not be allowed to play on women's teams or go into women's bathrooms and locker rooms. Stay away from the civil rights aspects of this because that's playing on PC turf. That's the kill box. Simply state reality and then show how anyone who disagrees with you is denying reality and I think you've got a winner.

Maybe throwing in some gratuitous insults might push you over the top! But we don't have a big enough sample size yet to know if that's a necessary ingredient to fighting Political Correctness.

Good luck. I hope this web site doesn't get shut down.

I think that we went off on a tangent here.

broken arrow wrote:

The bottom line is that Semenya did not choose to be born with this anomaly, so there is nothing else to say. I do have empathy for "normal" woman competing in this event however, you cant ban a runner because of a birth anomaly. She did nothing wrong, it is out of her control.

That's like saying a man did not choose to be born a male so there's nothing else to say if said man decides to compete in female races. It's a tad more complicated than you want to acknowledge.

L L wrote:

I think that we went off on a tangent here.

No. I'm focusing directly on the target. Liberal Political Correctness must lose for women's sports to continue.

You will be made to care. Do you care yet?

The blame isn't on Semenya, she is just an opportuni$t. CAS is at the root of this, and their socialist, PC agenda to destroy women's sports at all levels and iterations. There is nothing "wrong" with requiring people with testes to meet a standard for androgens, any different than having weight classes in combat sports.

I think what should ultimately come out of this is 100% of athletes who compete at global championships should be tested for drugs, gender and whatever else...

broken arrow wrote:

The bottom line is that Semenya did not choose to be born with this anomaly, so there is nothing else to say. I do have empathy for "normal" woman competing in this event however, you cant ban a runner because of a birth anomaly. She did nothing wrong, it is out of her control.

About half of the world's population are already banned from these events through no choice or wrongdoing of their own. If that's acceptable why can't a few more people be banned as well?

Oddities wrote:

Mutola competed at 3 olympic games (1988, 1992, 1996) that included gender verification testing for women, so if there was an issue presumably it would have been flagged.

i'm curious as to who the author thinks the other two are (5 of eight finalists, 3 are pretty easy to identify: Semenya plus two from World Indoors).

mutola has a woman's voice and looked feminine to me.

interview with mm here

I was reading CAS as a nickname for Caster Semenya. Sorry, I am an idiot.

The PC has swung to far in this case and caused a major problem for women's athletics. I totally agree but the rest of your points are a mixture of strawmen and generalizations.

You are painting with an awfully broad brush here. There about 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. Some follow dangerous medieval sects. Most don't.

No sane person is saying they are.

Yes, the Malthus population explosion stuff was stupid.

I assume you aren't an expert on climate scientist so you really have no basis for concluding that the experts are wrong on this.

No one is saying they are.

Everyone who follows athletics knows this is true.

By whom?

I can't ban her from running but I think we can ban her from 'women's' competition or whatever we want to call the non open competition normally referred to as men's competition.

Are you aware of the fact that Semenya has a Y chromosone? Looking at her chromosones, she is XY - which is what we normally associate with men - not XX.

From Harper's paper on letsrun in 2014:

In adddition to the Y chromosone, Semenya has balls (internal).. Some would argue that makes her more biologically male than female. She's a woman but if she's was going to have a child, it would be with her donating the sperm, not the egg.

Does anyone know if that's possible - do her testicles produce sperm could a doctor take it out and impregnate a woman?