Most Kenyan ABP testing is with advance notice

....Here is a partial list of people who have had "suspicious" results on the Letsrun.com Truth Passport (LTP):

1) Mike Rossi

2) Paula Radcliffe

3) Dr. Martial Plan B Saugy

4) IAAF

5) Lord Sebastian Coe

6) rekrunner

7) Renato Canova

8) Jos Hermens

9) Maria Sharapova

10) anyone from any Russian Federation

11) Jon Orange

12) Kenyan Federation

13) Italian Federation

14) Alex Schwazer

15) Alberto Salazar

16) .......................?

and so far in 2016......passing the LTP with results of "not at all suspicious":

1) Steve Jones............Go Steve Jones!!!...................

2) Ed Whitlock.............Go Ed Whitlock!!!....................

........................one more ................

....................has turned to dust................

....Marco Pantani ......(a client of Dr. Conconi)...sure had no problems with the velocity of his circulation.... and no problems with increased viscosity or clotting when he won the Tour of France in 1998; the year before Lance Armstrong (a client of Dr. Ferrari) started his streak of wins. Pantani had a documented hematocrit reading of over 60% at one race!.......

............The velocity of his circulation then decreased to ZERO....

............when Marco Pantani was found dead in an Italian hotel room.......

................one day you are the winner!......another day you are dead!.....

As you can see, nobody all that interested in the original subject of the thread -- maybe it was the Easter holiday weekend. Doesn't seem to me too much to discuss. It seems to be quite well explained in the linked article. It's not an ideal situation, but testing is better than before, and it will get better still.But you should not blame Renato for ignoring the topic that most everyone else also ignored. As everyone can go back and see for themselves, it was "rjm33" who hijacked the thread, not content that it only got one (off-topic) reply, immediately launching a provocative attack on Renato, and Paula, and subsequently attacking about twenty more, posting many more words than Renato, and never once posting on-topic. Maybe this is what adults do among scientific peers.Renato is merely responding in self-defense to direct criticism mostly from "rjm33" and to direct comments from "trollism" and "pop-pop"."Clerk" deserves some credit for trying to steer the conversation on topic (but yet curiously blamed Renato rather than blaming "rjm33" for straying off-topic).

Highly Bekelaselassie wrote:

So many words posted by Renato, none of which address the subject of the thread.

Renato Canova wrote:

Sorry, rjm33, but the reality is that "Responders" to altitude training don't show an increase in the level of Hct and Hb, but instead are able to increase the ability to catch more oxygen from the atmosphere.

So, it's not true that "textbooks and findings of science are INVALID for your claimed separate human species of athletes for whom the physiology textbooks do not apply", but that are INVALID for ALL PEOPLE LIVING IN ALTITUDE, WHO HAVE ADAPTATION AND NOT REACTION TO NEW SITUATIONS.

This study of altitude training and running performance in collegiate athletes came to the opposite conclusions that you seem to be making:

From the publication:

"In conclusion, after a 28-day altitude training camp, a significant improvement in 5,000-m run performance is, in part, dependent on 1) living at a high enough altitude to achieve a large acute increase in Epo, sufficient to increase the total red cell volume and VË™ O2max, and 2) training at a low enough altitude to maintain interval training velocity and O2 flux near sea level values"

The study was however, of only a 1 month period of training at altitude and not living at altitude.

Regarding living at altitude over several generations, it is difficult to apply one rule to the adaptations made because different populations resident to high altitude seem to have made different adaptations and blood profiles vary from relatively high Hb/Hct (eg Andes) to relatively low Hb/Hct (eg Tibet).

I start from your last consideration :

" it is difficult to apply one rule to the adaptations made because different populations resident to high altitude seem to have made different adaptations and blood profiles vary from relatively high Hb/Hct (eg Andes) to relatively low Hb/Hct (eg Tibet) ".

This is exactly what I ALWAYS say : if you want to understand what happens, with proper training, IN TOP KENYAN ATHLETES, you need to investigate TOP KENYAN ATHLETES AND THEIR TRAINING, not a Group of students staying 28 days in altitude, or people living in altitude with very high Hct (Andes) not able to have any improvement in their athletics results when they run at sea level.

Instead, the preferred sport of LR posters is to continue to explain the "official" thesis of physiologists that NEVER went to study the specific subject : TOP ATHLETES BORN, LIVING, TRAINING in altitude, USING THEIR SPECIFIC KIND OF TRAINING, which has nothing to do with the so called "well trained elite athletes", when elite are runners under 2:40 in full Marathon, and their training is something that in Kenya also children 8 years old are able to do.

.....I also must of missed the newsflash that top Kenyan runners born, living, and doing elite training at altitude have been discovered to be a separate human species of human....was that announced in science journals or National Geographic?.....as that would be a very important discovery and would make Renato famous!....if it was really true!

Renato also now seems to be making the claim in his last response that any 8 year old Kenyan can easily train and do a sub 2:40 marathon!..so they really are very different!

....OK...Renato....Show us skeptics all the sub 2:40 marathon Kenyan 8 year olds.....and we will all prepare for a rewrite of all the age-group world records!!!....Prove it!!...Let's see it!!.........

Renato also provides zero evidence to back up his arguments on hemoglobin affinity for oxygen increases in elite Kenyans living and training at altitude. I explained why his arguments make no sense in terms of physiology or basic science.

We will not have to go on for 1200 posts here. Renato has explained his arguments and theories (which I do not agree with). He has clearly stated at the beginning that ALL studies published in the history of physiology and medical science on normal, puny, regular humans are INVALID in the study of this new separate species of special Kenyan human he has discovered....for whom normal human physiology DOES NOT APPLY.

Because that is his view... and Renato is certainly allowed his view...I respected his view....I did not even post 1 scientific study of altitude training .....from 100's that I could choose from...it is too bad that they have ALL been declared invalid and irrelevant from the very start....but it does save us a lot of time!!

You will notice that his argument is very similar to your argument that any scientific studies on dehydration from running on normal, puny, regular humans also DO NOT APPLY and are INVALID in respect to the level of dehydration that may be obtained by the separate category of special, elite female runners (consisting of Superwoman Paula Radcliffe and others?...although I don't know if anyone else could qualify for this special category)....so for Paula as well....normal, puny, regular human physiology DOES NOT APPLY AND IS INVALID.

OK, then.......no scientific explanations, no scientific study from any physiology journal or medical journal, and no information found in any medical physiology textbook can even be referenced or used in any arguments against Renato or rekrunner.......because they ALL are simply INVALID!

............so there is a choice of which side to believe.....

...One side includes medical physiology textbooks, thousands of scientific journal articles by thousands of people with PHD's and medical degrees that are published in thousands of physiology and medical journals at the National Library of Medicine. This side also includes a doctor (rjm33) who has lived and practiced medicine at 2160m(7,100ft.) altitude for 26 years, seen blood test results of sub 2:30 female and sub 2:12 male marathoners (but only 2 Kenyans!) at altitude, and has ordered and interpreted over 6,000 hemoglobin, hematocrit, and reticulocyte blood tests in normal, puny, regular, human patients over that 26 years.........This doctor may also be a conspiracy theorist and internet weirdo who acts like an 8 year old...(and yet he still can't even run a 2:40 marathon!....darn!)........

.......The other side includes Coach Renato Canova and rekrunner.......

.............and I still think that Renato Canova is a true 'expert' at TRAINING METHODOLOGY.........and I will still look forward to reading his posts on training schedules of the top Kenyans...( How about something on Geoffrey Kamworor?.....what a race at the world 1/2marathon championships!.... ...Incredible!)

....................Go Renato!!!....................

......the LTP (Letsrun.com Truth Passport) has been shown to be very reliable and robust, with a high degree of sensitivity and specificity ,and a low measurement variation/error factor... with a statistical significance value of (p

......a statistical significance value of (p

Renato has an interesting hypothesis, which he cannot back with scientific evidence, and so exclaims that it is "THE EVIDENCE OF MY OWN EYES!" or some similar authoritarian declaration. If he were to show some degree of critical thinking (i.e. how he overcame initial doubts of his hypothesis) he would have some better credibility. Instead he just frames it as an ideology and defensively pounds the proverbial LRC roundtable (when not occasionally disclosing something along the lines of a double-hearted WR-holder) as we all await the next disclosure about the "mentally weak, second-rate" Kenyans who will be caught in the PED dragnet.

None of us doubt the unique physical and circumstantial attributes of the East Africans, nor their work ethic. However the myth of their innocence has been exploded, and all we ask is that everybody, including Renato, take a clear-eyed look through the smoke, falling debris and ash to see what is really going on. The fate of our sport depends on it in many ways.

......and some more LTP results are in .

...added to the LTP "suspicious" list:

16) Gladys Tejeda

....and added to the "NOT SUSPICIOUS AT ALL" LTP list.....with a score of 99.876347 (a gold level score) is.......

3) Ben True ( Hey!....look at his last name!)..........Go Ben True!!!!!!

...........see readers how easy it is to tell what is the TRUTH and who is THE REAL DEAL!!!......

...............from nonsense.............

..........It is obvious........It is simple.......It is easy.............

Renato Canova wrote:

You can better explain the situation of tests, if you look at the following numbers :

BLOOD TESTS :

140 Kenya (14% of all tests in the World)

86 Ethiopia

78 USA

41 Spain

37 Ukraine

36 Maroc

35 Russia

26 Germany

25 Italy and Japan

460 Other Countries

TEST OOC for EPO : 535

TEST FOR ABP (Biological Passport) : 369

TEST IN COMPETITION (Urine only) :

386 Kenya (19% of the total test in the World)

228 Ethiopia

146 USA

Mr. Canova,

You aren't being honest about the numbers.

386 is the number of ALL Kenyan urine tests. Not all urine tests are EPO tests. We know from the same report about 1/3 of all urine tests were for EPO. So, we're down to maybe 130 total urine tests for all testing pool Kenyans for all of 2015. And we know the EPO urine test is easy to defeat.

140 is the number of blood tests, total, for Kenyan athletes ALL disciplines. Very likely, in Kenya, a majority of those blood tests are for distance athletes.

You

Even your friend "Plasma Rubbish" said it was "bad science" to project the results of a running study to Paula's case.

As an altitude dwelling blood doctor, surely you are aware that among the human species, the high altitude dwelling Andeans, Tibetans, and Ethiopians have all adapted differently to life at altitude.

Andeans have high hemoglobin, and low oxygen saturation.

Tibetans have normal sea-level hemoglobin, and low oxygen saturation (with unusually high nitric oxide in the blood)

Oromo (Ethiopians) have high hemoglobin and high oxygen saturation.

Amhara (Ethiopians) have normal sea-level hemoglobin and normal sea-level oxygen saturation.

If you want to find out about the performance of elite Kenyans, you should probably measure elite Kenyans, and not well-trained Europeans or Americans.

If you want publications, maybe Cynthia Beall wrote some observations.

careful with that pesky "less than" sign -- it doesn't work in this forum.

rjm33 wrote:

......a statistical significance value of (p

Huh? What about the blood values of the Chinese women, and the blood values of Italian runners? Renato has offered real data to support his claims. In the past, he has also shared data from Kenyans.

Excellent

....so glad that you dropped in to troll some more with your nonsense..rekunnner..

......so once again my answer to you will be......WRONG AGAIN REKRUNNER...

While your reference to differences in hemoglobin and oxygen saturation may be correct for different people who have adapted to life at altitude.....Renato's claim was specifically for an increase in hemoglobin affinity to oxygen from TRAINING......not just differences from adaptations of these people over very, very long periods of time from LIVING at altitude....and this claim still has zero evidence presented to support it.

.......Please...... DO NOT TRY AGAIN REKRUNNER!!!!...........

..........Please........ GO AWAY rekrunner!!!!...........

.......... and take your endless BS NONSENSE with you!!!...

..................YOU ARE A COMPLETE AND TOTAL NONSENSE TROLL REKRUNNER!!!............

............and still from me :

.........Go Steve Jones!!!!!!......

.........Go Ed Whitlock!!!!!!........

.........Go Ben True!!!!!!

140 is the number of blood tests, total, for Kenyan athletes ALL disciplines. Since distance events in Kenya are so popular, we could imagine a majority of those blood tests are for distance athletes. So, the number, optimistically, is 0.5->0.66 of 140 =~ 70->90 tests total, for all Kenyan distance testing.

The IAAF and other sports LOVE, LOVE LOOOOVVVVVEEE to play the numbers inflation game. I'm calling you on it.

Interestingly enough, the same report has a list of all athletes tested and their test frequency in 2015. What we don't know is if they are counting wins in the test frequency or not. So, be careful making too many judgements.

Highly Bekelaselassie wrote:

None of us doubt the unique physical and circumstantial attributes of the East Africans, nor their work ethic..

Let's review other athletes that claimed unique capabilities.

Tyler Hamilton: the legendary "Vanishing twin."

Lance Armstrong: "Oversized heart" published by the now discredited Ed Coyle. Who, has stood by the claims in that paper. Coyle's protege, Dr. Coggan, is selling some really bad science over at training peaks.

Usain Bolt: "extraordinary stride length" and "lots of fast twitch muscle fibers,"

Oh yeah, Kenyans are exceptional. They are exceptional in their ability to never test positive until very recently.

Are there clean international elite athletes? Yes, for sure. The system is so bad it's impossible to know who they are.