Down Goes Danielle Meucci

Part of me wonders if this isn't just a cultural thing. Italians missing tests? Has anyone ever known an Italian who was punctual for anything? If we were talking about Germans maybe it would be more surprising.

ghost of maxwell king wrote:

haha, and david monti always loved to trumpet the NYRR's association with meucci.

Possible red flags: Meucci did DNF in NYCM this year while Lalli was 11th, the first one to finish out of the prize money, both more likely to avoid post-race testing.

ghost of maxwell king wrote:

haha, and david monti always loved to trumpet the NYRR's association with meucci. kinda like how he always retweeted "inspirational" stuff about pistorias, then was one of the first to run to the media with stories about what an a$$ pisto was. Hey dave, are you goign to be "very disappointed" about this? Oh yea, since we've a mo trafeh thread, how about how openly you always welcomed trafeh to nyrr races, even when we ALL knew he was dirty as heck. both of these guys stole a boatload of cash from americans over the years, especially at nyrr races. nice.

When I hear "Italian" distance runner, I get nervous given the country's cycling background.

I think the NYRR hypes up Italians as they have a ton of Italians in the race. The NYRR likes to get a top pro from as many countries as possible as it's free marketing to the masses in that country for them.

And there's the connection with Monti's ancestry. He tweets about going to Italy pretty much every year.

Also in case you forgot THERE ARE A LOT OF ITALIANS IN NYC! Yous guys ever get out of flyover country?

asdfadsffdf wrote:

Also in case you forgot THERE ARE A LOT OF ITALIANS IN NYC! Yous guys ever get out of flyover country?

Are we supposed to know irrelevant facts about your random city? Contrary to your belief you're not the center of the world.

It looks like Meucci did not dope! He missed a test - through no fault of his own, and Canova has mentioned this in another thread. He is clean.

I am convinced that this is an accident which needs to be rectified.

Meucci is a policeman in Italy - so he has a very good background, and he would be the last person to cheat. Also his family are God fearing catholics, and he would not sin in this way. He often mentions the God in his post race interviews.

He has been running for over 20 years at a high level. Why would he put all that past success in jeopardy now, in the twilight of his career?

These types of situations are very unfortunate accidents that need to be corrected.

Meucci should go to the Olympics next year (in the marathon, where he is a serious contender in hot weather conditions, even potential medallist). It would be a travesty were he to miss the Olympics.

Meucci's name should not be tarnished before everything is explained and that this was an innocent mistake. It would be like saying "Farah is a doper' because he missed a couple of tests in the past, because he did not hear the door bell ring. But Farah is also clean. He is also a God fearing Muslim. That in itself is enough of a deterrent, in Islam. It is Allah's will that most of the best middle and distance runners in the world are often full practicing Muslims.

Ghost in China, apply today, great benefits

you're absolutely right rojo, and I don't mean to hijack this into a "bash dave monti" thread but it was the second thing that came to mind, since I only seem to see meucci racing in the US at NYRR races- monti seems to have little problem with anyone *before* they are caught, and zero problem bashing them after the fact, with "shock" and "outrage." Problem is, if you do your due diligence, many RD's could simply "fail to invite" athletes who are highly suspicious. not saying meucci necessarily was, but Trafeh ALWAYS was, yet still was ushered in by nyrr/monti, despite being blatantly dirty. Perhaps meucci was less blatant, I don't follow the sport well enough to know his story, but he's pretty fast for a white guy, haha. (and yes, gun to my head says solinsky was clean ;)

rojo wrote:

I think the NYRR hypes up Italians as they have a ton of Italians in the race. The NYRR likes to get a top pro from as many countries as possible as it's free marketing to the masses in that country for them.

Again, another big example of total misinformation.

First, I don't have any connection with any athlete in the list, and this for the simple fact that from 2003 I don't train any Italian athlete, apart the Young specialist of 1500m Sofiane El Kabbouri.

The fact I know how the athletes of Marathon and long distances train (Meucci, Pertile, Anna Incerti, Lalli) is because I continue, obviously, to stay in touch with their coaches, who are my friends from more than 30 years (Massimo Magnani, Tommaso Ticali and now Stefano Baldini, coach of Andrea Lalli from the month of June, while I gave some training plan to Andrea from June 2014

when he asked me some technical support, after facing physical problems during all the season 2013).

Second, nobody of them had any positive test. The Italian problem comes from the Italian Antidoping Agency of the Olympic Committee, that never sent any official warning to the athletes, about their whereabouts.

All these athletes never provided to inform the NADO (Italian Antidoping Agency) of the change of their whereabouts, for one or two days only, when they moved from the basic training site. We know this is a wrong and superficial behavior, but the most part of responsibility is from NADO itself.

For example, the specialist of hammer throwing Silvia Salis sent personally an email to NADO asking which procedure she had to follow about the whereabouts, and never received some answer.

The situation is not referred to athletes of track and field only, but to all the Italian sports, including more than 100 names.

It's clear that in Italy we had the justice running at two different speeds : the penal justice (following our statal laws) which is the most advanced in the world about doping (not for top athletes only : don't forget the biggest market is in the gyms and among amateurs), and the activity of NADO, very soft and permissive especially with the rich professional disciplines (soccer, tennis, volley etc...).

So, we can say these athletes were superficial because the system in Italy didn't work, and practically was considered as a joke.

They are guilty for this superficiality, but are the real victims of a mentality of couldn't-care-less attitude, typical of the old NADO (now there is a new Agency, and this is the reason because these accusations, coming after controlling thousands of emails between athletes and old NADO, become effective only now).

I'm curious to see, in other Countries, how many athletes don't update their whereabouts, supposing there is some Nationa antidoping Agency working there..... but this is not a justification for the behavior of the Italian Athletes, less guilty than the old Antidoping Agency !

Let me give you all some BACKGROUND on the country...

Italy is country run by an over-zealous judiciary, which is now rooting firmly into sports. You gotta be out of your mind if you think of doping in Italy right now.

It's anti-doping laws are one of the first able to send the doper to JAIL. I am sure you all remember Alex Schwazer the 50k walker who got caught for EPO before the 2012 Olympics. He got banned for four years and got an EIGHT MONTHS SUSPENDED SENTENCE. So he is a (mis)step away from getting jail time. Btw he might get reinstated soon.

Do you all seriously believe that the "top of the crop" of the Italian Athletics are all dumb enough to risk this? It is just yet another case of a legalistic approach gone out of control. You will see that this nonsense will soon end up in nothing.

Anyway this is sad as it is a likely death toll for the Athletics movement in the country, which you might have noticed got ZERO MEDALS at the last Worlds.

Btw... Meucci retired at the recent NYC after experiencing stomach issues which were documented two days before on the Italian athletics web site. So no conspiracy there...

Well, Ghost has said he was clean, so we can all rest easily now. He would never defend a doper.

And of course no Muslims would ever dope, so we can stop testing them and direct resources elsewhere.

Renato - amico, sono convinto che Meucci non ha fatto niente de malo, niente di malo, perche lui una persona molto buena.

Questa situazione e verdademente complicata, perche sono convinto che tutta questa gente non a fatto niente di malo.

Vediamo dopo che succedera.

Ghost in China, apply today, great benefits.

Renato Canova wrote:

Again, another big example of total misinformation.

First, I don't have any connection with any athlete in the list, and this for the simple fact that from 2003 I don't train any Italian athlete, apart the Young specialist of 1500m Sofiane El Kabbouri.

How do you explain his statement here after Campaccio XC?: “I started my career with cross country, which is my first love, but I have been training for the marathon for two years so I didn’t expect to run so well. I’m now planning to train for 20 days In Kenya to prepare for the Paris Marathon and in the build-up I will run the Rome-Ostia Half-Marathon. I’m changing my training methods under the guidance of my new coaches, Renato Canova and Vittorio Di Saverio.”

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:The fact I know how the athletes of Marathon and long distances train (Meucci, Pertile, Anna Incerti, Lalli) is because I continue, obviously, to stay in touch with their coaches, who are my friends from more than 30 years (Massimo Magnani, Tommaso Ticali and now Stefano Baldini, coach of Andrea Lalli from the month of June, while I gave some training plan to Andrea from June 2014

when he asked me some technical support, after facing physical problems during all the season 2013).

Second, nobody of them had any positive test. The Italian problem comes from the Italian Antidoping Agency of the Olympic Committee, that never sent any official warning to the athletes, about their whereabouts.

All these athletes never provided to inform the NADO (Italian Antidoping Agency) of the change of their whereabouts, for one or two days only, when they moved from the basic training site. We know this is a wrong and superficial behavior, but the most part of responsibility is from NADO itself.

For example, the specialist of hammer throwing Silvia Salis sent personally an email to NADO asking which procedure she had to follow about the whereabouts, and never received some answer.

The situation is not referred to athletes of track and field only, but to all the Italian sports, including more than 100 names.

It's clear that in Italy we had the justice running at two different speeds : the penal justice (following our statal laws) which is the most advanced in the world about doping (not for top athletes only : don't forget the biggest market is in the gyms and among amateurs), and the activity of NADO, very soft and permissive especially with the rich professional disciplines (soccer, tennis, volley etc...).

So, we can say these athletes were superficial because the system in Italy didn't work, and practically was considered as a joke.

They are guilty for this superficiality, but are the real victims of a mentality of couldn't-care-less attitude, typical of the old NADO (now there is a new Agency, and this is the reason because these accusations, coming after controlling thousands of emails between athletes and old NADO, become effective only now).

I'm curious to see, in other Countries, how many athletes don't update their whereabouts, supposing there is some Nationa antidoping Agency working there..... but this is not a justification for the behavior of the Italian Athletes, less guilty than the old Antidoping Agency !]/quote]

So some of this I have to take on your word. I don't know the political and legal culture of Italy, or the culture of CONI in terms of their relationship with athletes, communication and testing, so lets assume you are correct.

You are the coach of the most mentally tough athletes in the world. Who's responsibility does it reeally come down to, to execute training and racing? The athletes'. You've written about the professionalism of Moses Mosop, because you know that in everything that can be provided to an athlete (massage, nutrition, coaching, travel, meet entry, sponsorship) it still comes down to the individual athlete's execution.

So when you come on here to blame the organization for the failures of the athletes, you're seen as a total charlatan.

It may be that CONI did not follow procedures. Then how come not one of those 26 athletes recommended for sanction were able to appeal? How come in all of the articles I've seen so far (granted, in mangled Google Translate) there hasn't been a consensus of unfairness or unjust procedures.

To say that the "Italian problem" comes from the anti-doping agency is a total misdirection from the culture of doping (all the way back to Conconi), with the growing sophistication of coordinated subversion of the anti doping system. Which is not new! that the Italians are skipping tests is not a new thing which has no precedent, and must be evaluated carefully! It's what the Russians have been proven to do. Its what Kenyans have been seen to do. Its what Ethiopians and Moroccans living in other countries have been found to do (and sanctioned accordingly). To say that the Italians are genuine and clean goes against the pattern of the sport, which has been shown again and again.

And you are not going to show that the Italians are different by blaming the NADO.

Hold on to your pedantry all you like: "They never tested positive" (Yeah, they never tested anything), you're showing yourself more and more to be a charlatan. They broke the rules, and they have been sanctioned. Good riddance.

These agents need to be criminally charged. Renato Canova is an absolute fraudster. Listen to his pathetic excuses such as 'Kenyans don't dope', then changes to 'top Kenyans don't dope because it does not help them'. WOW Only gullible morons support this fraudster Canova.

Clerk - you've had some excellent posts of late. Just wanted to give you a shout-out.

I, too, am skeptical of just about any claim to innocence when it comes to missed tests. Sure, I don't know every single detail about the ins and outs of the procedure. But, just putting myself in the shoes of an elite athlete, I think I would be constantly paranoid about missing a test, and I think most athletes would be the same way. This would be a concern that needed constant attention. In much the same way that a parent with a baby or young child doesn't just forget to take care of them for a couple of days or even a couple of hours, an athlete would should be constantly thinking about the whereabouts system and making sure they are available one way or another when required. In this modern age of cell phones and call forwarding and what have you, it ought to be fairly simple.

I get that this constant need for vigilance would be pretty annoying, but that's just part of the deal with being a pro athlete. You know what you are getting into.

Ghost wrote:

He has been running for over 20 years at a high level. Why would he put all that past success in jeopardy now, in the twilight of his career?

Athletes are significantly more likely to dope in the twilight of their careers. If an older athlete is continuing to match or beat the performances of their youth it's a huge red flag.

canova's a coach, not an agent.

Clerk, what did I write about Lalli ? That I gave him some advice (being in China) from 2014 till June 2015, when he went to Stefano Baldini because needed a coach working with him in Italy, not only some programme.

So, which is the difference from what I wrote and what Lalli said ?

Secondly, the problem of the Italian Antidoping Agency is exactly how I explained in my previous post. You can go to read an article of Eugenio Capodacqua, on the newspaper Repubblica, where he explains very well before the Italian antidoping didn't have the right credibility, because was a branch of CONI (the Italian Olympic Committee) controlling.... the athletes competing for CONI. So, the controlled system was the controller of itself.

After this situation, recently the President of CONI changed the system, and all the officials working in this system. The current NADO is different from the old one, and of course is very much more precise than before.

Here the only charlatan are you, who doesn't want to understand what I write, and also if English is not my Language, I think it's clear enough for not creating misunderstandings.

I suppose I wrote clearly they are guilty of superficiality, and this fact can't be considered like a not important fact. But, also, I specified that the work of NADO about the communications with the athletes was absolutely inadequate, creating in the mind of the athletes the idea that whereabouts and correct procedures were something not important.

If, after the first mistake for every athlete (no compilation of whereabouts, or not correct update of them in case of some change), NADO had to sent some warning (explaining the risk of ban in case of repeated failing), I think nobody could continue to ignore the whereabouts.

There are cases very strange : for example, Fabrizio Donato, who in the same period had several tests from WADA, always very precise in his whereabouts (he well knew how to act, being from long time athlete of international level), instead making mistakes with the Italian whereabouts.

So, it's clear something didn't work, and this is a problem of communications.

About the athletes I know, NOBODY of them received any official communication of missed tests, or of not filling their whereabouts in the right way (and, at the end, we find athletes with 9 faults, without ant previous communication !).

I suggest you something : when there are problems about doping in different Countries, before writing immediately without knowing the exact facts, wait some days in order to have more precise infos. Being in Kenya and Ethiopia for long time, and in China the last two years, I saw situations very far from what media writes, always without knowing the differences among the problem of one Country and the problem of another Country.

In some Country there was doping organized and supported from the local Federation (not the Government), how happened in the most part of the Countries of the old communist block (URSS, GDR, Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania) in the past, and partially continued during present days.

In some other Country, like China, doping was widespread in the past, but the athletes were totally passive, because the system didn't accept any individual idea from them : they had to do everything their coaches ordered, in training such as taking various pharmacs, without asking anything, because their only role was to obey. In China it's very easy to connect any athletes with their coaches, because all the coaches are officially paid by their Province, and only these coaches work with the athletes (unofficial coaches are not allowed and don't exist), so, if some athlete is positive, is because he received doping from his coach.

Also, no Chinese athletes are allowed to compete abroad if the Federation doesn't enter them directly (private activity doesn't exist), so when some athlete is positive, the coach is fired losing his job, the athlete is banned for 4 years (already when the official sanction was 2 years only), and automatically can't compete abroad in the future.

In Western Countries, the athletes themselves asked for doping, because there is not any official structure behind them, but some private Group. We can say the western doping is something individual, where the Federations don't organize anything, but sometimes don't pay attention to what happens inside the Country.

When I see people putting in the same pot the doping of Russia and Kenya, there is clear evidence they don't know anything about the two Countries.

It's true that AK didn't have any interest for building an antidoping agency in Kenya. But what people has to understand, is that Kenya is the Country in the world with the highest number of athletes in top 30 (so, needing whereabouts), and for having an efficient antidoping system they must use more than 50% of all the financial resources of the Federation, if the Government doesn't intervene (and the Government intervened with a contribution of... 2000 USD, enough for 4 or 5 tests in one season !).

And another thing everybody must understand is that, of all the Kenyans positive, no more than 3 of them were in top 30 in the World, so in any case the others could not be tested out of competition (because not in the Group of the best), like happens in the most part of Countries. Tell me, how many times some American sprinter or middle distance runner who is number 10 in US was tested out of competition ?

And I confirm what I said several times : EPO (not other type of doping, I already spoke a lot of time about this) doesn't work for athletes living and training in altitude, with high volume and high intensity (and, of course, proper methodology).

It's a fact that, now, in Kenya there is some mentality, for athletes of medium level (medium for Kenya, of course), to look at some shortcut. This mentality changed in the last 3 years only. I didn't go Kenya from February 2014, and I can assure that, till 2011, when I was there for 6-9 months per year, NEVER there was some athlete asking for some supplement, also legal. But the main problem is the ignorance and little education.

You can see the most part of doping is with Nandrolone or Florosemide.

How many cases of EPO there were among the doped athletes ?

But for the general idea, all Kenyans are doped. That's the reason because ALL the best Kenyan Champions are asking to have a penal law, for putting in jail officials, coaches and also athletes cheating in this way.

Renato:

You can see the most part of doping is with Nandrolone or Florosemide.

How many cases of EPO there were among the doped athletes ?

"Athletics Kenya has announced that the “B” sample test of two-time Boston and Chicago Marathon champion Rita Jeptoo has confirmed her use of the performance-enhancing drug EPO"