So.... Anybody going to talk about the fact Deena had pacers?

Paula only needed one pacer

So I was wondering how you all would attack Deena, and come up with some batsh#!t scenario of how she did it again! Thought it would be drugs or her shoes had little engines installed or something. No you suggest she hired a group of men to pace her. I see Deena run like this and all I think of is what training has been like for her. She has a family you know. I just think of the planning, organization and weekly devastation she must experience. She must get sick, pull up and still step out for some 12 mile tempo again. At the same time taking care of her family who made need her today or maybe they are sick. I can't imagine how she puts this effort in day in and day out. The same with Luke.

Alexis Pappis wasn't hired to be a pacer at Chcago. As mentioned above people can bring their own papers if they want. That's exactly what Deena did. Pappis trains with Deena up in Mammoth, so I'm sure the coach, Pappis and Denna made that decision, not Chicago. Smart move on Deena's part.

Pappas trains with her at altitude for certain build ups.

Pappas did pace her, nothing to hide unless someone says it was not a paced effort, it was. There are no fixed rules against it at Chicago the just didn't hire pacers this year bottom line.

Pappas is being entertained by race directors to run their event. Note she will be riding around NYC marathon in the pace car.

Comeonnnnnn! wrote:

So I was wondering how you all would attack Deena, and come up with some batsh#!t scenario of how she did it again! Thought it would be drugs or her shoes had little engines installed or something. No you suggest she hired a group of men to pace her. I see Deena run like this and all I think of is what training has been like for her. She has a family you know. I just think of the planning, organization and weekly devastation she must experience. She must get sick, pull up and still step out for some 12 mile tempo again. At the same time taking care of her family who made need her today or maybe they are sick. I can't imagine how she puts this effort in day in and day out. The same with Luke.

What are you babbling on about? None of what you're talking about is relevant. The question at hand is, "Did Deena have her own pacers who were at the race for no other reason than to rabbit her to a time?" If she didn't and just grabbed on to a good group of guys, fine. If she did have her own pacers (obviously not 10 of them, but 1 or 2) then I think that is grounds for some criticism (I wouldn't say very harsh criticism, but some) given that the race specifically called for no rabbits.

Compare it to Sara Hall's article on the front page today:

Hall ran with a group of guys the first half and then said it got a lot harder the second half when the pack broke up. That's all fine. Now if Hall had her own specific pacer that stayed by her side the whole way no matter what, that would be a different story.

I'm not saying Kastor definitely had a pacer(s), we're just trying to figure it out.

Interesting truth wrote:

Pappas trains with her at altitude for certain build ups.

Pappas did pace her, nothing to hide unless someone says it was not a paced effort, it was. There are no fixed rules against it at Chicago the just didn't hire pacers this year bottom line.

Pappas is being entertained by race directors to run their event. Note she will be riding around NYC marathon in the pace car.

Fair piont; I stand corrected about Pappas thinking about the marathon.

I still think it's debatable whether it's ok for someone to bring their own pacer at a race that specifically decided not to have pacers. It's a slippery slope, where do we draw the line? If Dixson Chumba hired his friend to pace him (and only him) at 2:04 pace would that be ok? It would completely go against what the race organizers were trying to accomplish by not having rabbits and give that athlete an unfair advantage in my mind.

Do I have a problem with Deena having her own pacer in last year's Chicago race or any other random race? No, not at all. But I think it sets a dangerous precedent given Chicago 2015 was meant to be un-paced. Next year are they going to tell Kastor she can have a male pacer, but then tell Chumba he can't bring his to rabbit him to 2:04?

I really don't think a few of you are understanding the point from my original post, so let me clarify a few things:

1) I am not saying Deena doesn't work hard, and doesn't deserve the record. My point is simply based on principle. At the press conference she stated that she was happy that there were no pacers, and that she agreed with the decision to have no pacers at the race. That is just being duplicitous, considering we now know that Pappas was pacing her!

2) I am not trying to have some frankenstein, pitchfork, rally against her to "burn her house down." Let's not be silly. I am just pointing out some interesting observations about Deena's decisions and how her race unfolded.

3) Lastly, I am not saying pacers are "bad". Like I said before, I think pacers make the races more exciting, and I prefer them. My point was, if nobody is allowed to have pacers, why is she given special exception to the rule just because she's Deena. Especially when thousands of dollars are on the line for other athletes, who were at a disadvantage to Deena since they did not have a pacer. Diane Nukuri, Sarah Hall, and Jessica Peterson, could have all potentially benefited from Deena not having a pacer, or them having pacers. Who knows.

And to the "none of your business" guy. You might as well just get off letsrun because that comment makes no sense in this community.

I am sure this holds true for most of you, but I love this sport and I want to see "fair" races, and honest and open performances. And when someone is not being open, honest, and fair, I think that deserves a discussion. Unless anybody thinks that people should not be held accountable when they are not being moral individuals, then I would stand corrected.

I am one of the "2 guys from South Florida" who ran with Deena for the first 18 miles of the marathon. I'm here to tell you my experience and wow did I get a chuckle reading about the "supposed conspiracy" by Deena to get her well-deserved record.

I've never met Deena in my life and happen to think she is incredible after running with her in person randomly for the first 2/3 of the marathon before I encountered my own struggles. I know 2 of the other guys in the group who ran with Deena. We all ran with her randomly because we all had a similar goal and were on a steady pace of low 5:30's through 10K and 5:38 through the half. And yeah we all thought "How cool is it to run with Deena on such a momentous day!" I did see Alexi towards the back of the group (always trailing Deena by a few steps). Pappas definitely wasn't pacing her or leading the group. Seemed more like a practice simulation for her as she gets ready for her first full. She wanted to experience the marathon as a runner in the mix is my guess.

My goal was 2:28 going into the race and I led Deena's group through the half at 1:14:01. I probably had 1-2 steps on Deena at that point. I felt great for 18 miles and didn't mind being in the front of a group of anywhere from 20-30 men and 3 women (Deena, Partridge and Pappas) in the first 10K that eventually got down to about 10 at the half.

We had TV crews in our face the whole time. We were careful not to trip Deena accidentally or block her access to her hydration bottles. We all felt honored to be a part of her record attempt but had never met each other before or Deena. I can say that for myself and 2 other guys I knew in the group who originally had all planned to work together to run sub 2:30 and hopefully 2:28. We all 3 are from Florida (2 from Miami and one from Orlando). The guy from Orlando actually won the masters category with 2:30 and my friend from Miami ran a 5:00 PR in 2:28! I however struggled with stomach cramps after Mile 18 and a strained calf and slowed down a lot the final 12K to finish in 2:32:53. A 5 second PR over my Boston time from April.

I was a little disappointed in my race personally but inspired by Deena and plan to train hard to run even faster as a masters runner. I was more than disappointed at the cynicism and accusatory spirit of this post. But then I remembered it's LetsRun and this is par for the course.

Deena didn't hire anyone. All the guys in the group were in either the American Development field or the A Corral and all were just honored to help her and it happened organically without anyone saying anything. Funny thing is that she actually helped all of us probably more than we helped her. Like my friend who got a 5 min PR. We all were energized by running next to such a legend. I literally felt tons of extra energy just being around her and witnessing her do her thing.

Anyways, I'll never forget running with Deena for 18 miles even though my race fell apart. She was very professional and precise. I never got to speak to her post-race and we've never met to this day but someday I hope to talk with her about the race.

If you want to look me up for verification, I am bib 413 and live/train in Miami Beach, FL. We have a very strong running community down here, believe it or not.

Forgot to mention.

I can confirm that Pappas dropped out at 13.1 exactly as we all crossed in 1:14:0x. Pappas never was ahead of Deena, always about 2-3 steps behind. I have photos if you would like to see otherwise look it up yourself on marathonfoto.com.

As one of my friends mentioned to me, it is ridiculous to accuse Deena of either hiring pacers or taking advantage of the fact she ran with the American Development field. We all just happened to be on the same pace and formed a nice pack and she was smart to stay in the middle for the most part. Sometimes though she was outside the pack getting her hydration bottle or making her own move or leading.

Pappas definitely was not a pacer for her. She served her no benefit as Kastor never would have seen her or benefited from her presence. I think Pappas ran it since Deena is coaching her and they've been training together and she wanted to test how she would handle 13.1 at that pace before committing to running her first marathon. Maybe it was a workout for her?

Regardless, I have so much respect for Deena and all the other masters athletes out there who do it the honest and clean way. They inspire lots of us who run not because we get paid to do this or because we are on an OTQ level but rather because we love the sport and the challenge of self-improvement.

Go ahead... call me a hobby jogger lol

If that is the case, that Pappas was not pacing her and "some" of the guys just happened to be running in the same pack, then I would stand corrected on those points. But, that only covers some of the runners in that pack. Who knows about the rest of the guys and if they were or were not there to pace her.

To say it is ridiculous to make that accusation against Deena just makes it seem as if you were starstruck with Deena and therefore feel obligated to defend her. Not saying that's the case, but when you say it is ridiculous that I came to that conclusion, it makes it seem like something else is a barrier to your logic. Like I said in my original post, it very well could have been coincidence, but when you have Pappas, and a slew of guys around Deena when other racers were either not fortunate enough to have found a pack like that or not fortunate enough to have that for as long as Deena did, makes the people around her seem suspect. I hope you understand that. But that's why I didn't say it was certain in my post, just suspect. But, thanks for correcting me on your involvement.

Thank you bib 413 for your reply and sharing that information. I know it puts my mind at ease that there wasn't something going on that there shouldn't have been. Sounds like there just happen to be guys running the same pace (very believable in that time range) and Pappas wasn't pacing, but rather being paced. Sounds good.However, you could have done without the holier than though sanctimonious tone in your responses. I think it was a fair question put forth by the OP given the situation and presence of Pappas. And let's reiterate that he was asking questions, not just making ridiculous claims. He admitted that he didn't KNOW what happened.There's nothing wrong with asking questions. Keeps people and the sport honest.

This.

Well, my apologies for any "holier than thou" attitude I may have in this subject. Starstruck maybe, ignorant most definitely not. And who can blame someone for being starstruck around one of the greatest American woman distance runners of all time? I normally run solo and I guess I was also a bit appalled at the always-suspicious posts on here. Can we for once just appreciate a great performance by an American, and a masters woman at that.

I also remember the crowd shouting "Go Deena, Go Blake" the whole first 10K. Then no more Blake... Pappas was like a ghost. Partridge came on strong towards the end and finished just ahead of me and right behind Sara Hall. Sara had a great race in my opinion and attacked smart in the second half.

For those of you who may be concerned about a conspiracy to have pacers for Deena's record, I can say that I recognized most of the guys in the "Deena" group as people I had seen before the race in the American Development Field tent and I also saw some people with A corral numbers on their bib. I was too focused during the race to think about this stuff but I have looked back on a lot of photos and noticed it's all a bunch of dudes from American Development who it appears randomly formed a pack and Deena happened to be on the same pace as us.

Same thing happened for me in Boston this year when I also ran 2:32. A nice pack formed in the first 10K and held on together through 22 miles. That time though we didn't have an Olympian in our midst.

Anyways, it was a lovely day in Chicago (minus some gusty sections on the course). I enjoyed the sun and it wasn't too hot for me (since I train in Miami year round) but I prefer 40-55 for the marathon and believe it was 57-66 from 7:30-10am while we were racing. The crowd was incredible I might add!

I think this is getting to the core of the real decision Chicago needs to make. Where should the line be drawn, if at all?

In the spirit of competition, records should only occur while you are running with someone that you are actually competing with.

A record run can have a pacer if that person is legitimately in competition with that person, starts at the same time, stays on course and is in a competitive position at all times while leading them.

So, on the track, you can't get lapped and then pace someone because you are no longer in direct competition at that point.

Men can't pace women because they do not appear in the same results.

(women can't pace men either)

So Dean's situation breaks the spirit of the rules as she was seemingly assisted by runners she was not competing against.

Now that's pretty hard to avoid in co-ed races and we are just talking about a masters record here.

But the question started by the thread is legitimate.

Old D2 Guy wrote:

I think this is getting to the core of the real decision Chicago needs to make. Where should the line be drawn, if at all?

nobody should even be allowed to draft. not even the 4hr marathoners.

but for real, the race organizers only care about the lead group not having rabbits. deena was not going to win barring disaster.

Maybe I'm one of the ones missing your point completely.Your original post said "shady", and now you use words like not honest, open fair, and moral.As a point of fact, everyone in Chicago was allowed to have pacers. The only decision made was that the organizers were not providing them.Diane Nukuri, Sarah Hall, and Jessica Peterson were all allowed to have their own pacemakers -- or use Deena's, if they felt they could hang with an aging master.Even if we assume the very worst case you could make about pacemakers, short of carrying her, there is basically nothing dishonest, unfair, shady, or immoral about it.By your own criteria, this doesn't deserve a discussion.

I don't think the organizers were going for an "unpaced" race. They just decided not to organize (pay) it that way.Of course, Dixson Chumba can hire a friend to pace him and that would be completely OK.Next year Kastor can have her male pacer, and Chumba too.

This is false. Carey Pinkowski specifically stated that they wanted an un-paced race. It isn't that Chicago (an event with millions of dollars at its disposal) all of a sudden got too cheap to pay pacers. It wasn't a BYOP (Bring Your Own Pacer) type of deal.

Carey Pinkowski: "We have always tried to blend pace and competition. But the athletes relied too much on the pace up front, and the chemistry of the competition has become too much about settling in behind the rabbits. Without the rabbits, the leaders need a much greater level of concentration. That will allow us to see more tactics, strategy and competition throughout the race. ... Great competition produces great performances."

What are you babbling on about? None of what you're talking about is relevant. The question at hand is, "Did Deena have her own pacers who were at the race for no other reason than to rabbit her to a time?" If she didn't and just grabbed on to a good group of guys, fine. If she did have her own pacers (obviously not 10 of them, but 1 or 2) then I think that is grounds for some criticism (I wouldn't say very harsh criticism, but some) given that the race specifically called for no rabbits.

I'm not saying Kastor definitely had a pacer(s), we're just trying to figure it out.[/quote]

What! Your the one with the BABBLE tough guy. There is no reason on this planet to suggest Deena had pacers. I mentioned only what I think when she runs well. That's all! Your insane accusations are way beyond babble. Who are you, have you ever run before? What monkey world do you live in that would cause you to watch that race and come up with such insanity. Hide behind your computer, one day your gonna play tough guy and the wrong man will be standing in front of you. Keep hiding.