Do elite train in flats?

Jooosephat wrote:

I'd like to to know your background. Are you a biomechanics expert, physical therapist, elite runner/coach, or someone who has done exhaustive studies on this subject?

AFAIK, you're a college kid who works at a shoe store. I like your theories, but you need to stop selling it as gospel until you have some evidence to back it up.

You are on the right track.

My info that I have heard also tells me the same thing:

Trackhead is an average, small-college runner, 20 years old I think about, and has worked at a shoe store for awhile.

And he is "going to talk to some international federations" ? He is going to tell them how to train and what shoes to wear??

That's funny.

Look, the kid seems to know a decent amount about running, and we should not be reverse agist, as in, just because he is young, we should not assume he does not know his stuff. But he does act like he has waaay more experience than he actually appears to have (if my sources are correct on his age).

My prior post read too pro-flats. I believe that it depends. I had a lot of success running in lightweight trainers and orthotics. I recognized that I was having some problems still, so I'm experimenting. I'm much happier with my form now, but the long-term prognosis is still unclear.

brettnsuzy wrote:

And there is an excellent article in this month's RunningTimes comparing the footstrikes of Noguchi and Drossing. The author found that Noguchi was very efficient, landing under her center of gravity, while Drossin was far less efficient, landing infront of herself, essentially braking with every footstrike. The difference is Noguchi trains in her Japanese Asics, and Drossin in the Trabuco.

The author of this excellent article, Dr. Michael Yessis, is a famed biomechanist from California who also wrote a book called Explosive Running, which features a chapter on barefoot running. If you're a non-believer, check out this book and you're thoughts about trainers will completely change!

I also finished up a biomechanics research paper this fall comparing barefoot with shod running (in trainers). I took video clips of both running methods and broke them down into the phases of the running cycle. The differences in Biomechanics are AMAZING!!!! While barefoot, you land mostly flatfooted, allowing a greater surface area to absorb and withstand the energy and force upon impact. While shod, you land on your heels, meaning that a smaller surface area must absorb and withstand a large amount of energy and force. This is a HUGE reason for most chronic injuries, particularly those to the Achilles tendon, plantar fascia, and knees. I will gladly provide my video clips and paper to anyone interested. This is not b.s..

But if you're running fast (as I reckon lots of us are training to do), don't you tend to land on your forefoot? So neither flat-footed nor heel-striking.

For information, I do my steady mileage in Asics 2090, my winter track reps in Saucony flats, summer track and all barrier sessions in Adidas 3MD spikes. Primary event is 3kSC.

Explosive Running is a great book...even if you don't want to run in flats, barefoot, or do this whole minimalist thing I highly recommend the book. I'd spend the 15 bucks or so to get it anyway. The active warm up exercises alone are amazing. If you really want to warm up well and stretch your muscles do those. Its easy, quick, and effective. Once you get the form down you can do them in 10 minutes tops. Also if you're wondering what you should and can do to develop power in your stride Yessis covers it all. He has many exercises that can be done in many fashions to meet all your strength needs. Hands down the book is worth it if you like to read about this kind of stuff or want to learn.

Jaguar I'd love to see your research. If you could somehow post it or email it to my address that would be great.

Thanks

One more point, then it's back to work.

I often hear folks mention durability as a justification for trainers. I believe that structure breaks down prior to cushioning. My ligher shoes have lasted just as long as my trainers. My H Streets have 150 miles on them and no wear other then a few of the bumps in the lateral forefoot have worn down a little.

As I said, I'm experimenting, so I'm no advocate. I have found it interesting, however, that lower-heeled shoes have allowed me to alter my mechanics to a forefoot landing, which in turn has eliminated most wear on my shoes. I wonder if less wear on my shoes means less impact on my body.

Could I get a copy of the videos and the paper?

Thanks.

email=

rolo@cjcj.com

If you were to video yourself you would find that you would be more mid-foot to forefoot, than you would be just forefoot.

Interesting. My coach videoed me a couple of weeks ago during a barrier session (for hurdling technique) but we haven't had a chance to review it yet.

I presume the mid-foot to fore-foot ratio changes as you speed up. Sprinting is 100% forefoot, walking 100% heelstrike with the rest in between. So the "perfect" bio-mechanical action changes depending on the target speed.

For most of us (definitely me) getting my all round fitness and strenght up will have far more impact on my times than having a perfect running style, so I'll go with whatever works for me.

I should clarify:

Without running full-time in something minimal is success impossible? Of course not.

Will running in something other than a minimal shoe certainly lead to injury? No. I ran in the 2000 series and Kayanos for years and my only injury was a hamstring tear from a slip in the mud. For me, the move wasn't an injury induced one (although it did provide the opportunity from building back from zero). I got tired of not being able to get up on my toes and the end of races. I'd finish a track or cross country race and my soleuses were shot. I wanted that to stop.

I really do believe that Japan has it down as far as selling shoes, and that epberlin is right -- I think you'll see things like an H Street with a midsole of PU -- a little more weight than EVA, but damn near indestructable.

And I am serious when I say that I hope to gain an audience with some federations. They're actaully not that far removed, and suprisingly accessible. Vamos a ver.

[quote]8" wrote:

Guys posting here saying they train 100-120 miles a week in flats without injury ARE LYING TO YOU PEOPLE. quote]

No, we're not. Thanks for playing, though. By all means, please do keep training in your combat boots...

NO, YOU DOOFUS! We are NOT lying. It may not work for you. You may not want to try it, or both. That's your business. But don't come on here and call me a liar.

8" wrote:

Most of the advice about running on this board is sound but this whole bit about training in flats is just a crock. Sure being in $150 Trance or Kayano is not necessary and may even hurt you in the long run but suggesting you run in flats is swinging too much in the other direction.

Guys posting here saying they train 100-120 miles a week in flats without injury ARE LYING TO YOU PEOPLE. They want nothing more than to injure as many competitors as possible. And don't tell me about Geb or even PR. Last I checked there aren't too many world champions posting on this message board.

I am not suggesting that training in flats is a bad thing...and in fact, some barefoot running, and of course intervals in flats/spikes, etc is good for you. But keep in mind, as many folks who say "minimal is the way to go", there are just as many biomechanists, PTs, etc who say that stability shoes, orthotics, etc are also the way to go...

brettnsuzy wrote:

I am not suggesting that training in flats is a bad thing...and in fact, some barefoot running, and of course intervals in flats/spikes, etc is good for you. But keep in mind, as many folks who say "minimal is the way to go", there are just as many biomechanists, PTs, etc who say that stability shoes, orthotics, etc are also the way to go...

Yep. For some, training in racers will work great. For others, not at all. In running, you really are an experiment of one. Find what works for you, and don't shout at others who find something different.

dont be a moron wrote:

dont run in flats unless you are working out or racing. its just stupid. the shoe isnt made for that purpose and neither is your foot. be smart.

you, my friend, are the idiot. i worked at an outdoor specialty store and got some "training" in footwear. one of the best facts i got out of it is that there are almost no incidents of foot problems with people that don't wear shoes. in india, for example, it is only the upper class that wear shoes and they are the ones who have complaints of foot and leg problems. the foot, along with the rest of the body, is an amazing structure. the foot and leg is a natural shock absorber. most importantly, your body has the ability to adapt to the stresses you put it through. ever gotten a new pair of shoes that made your feet sore after walking around in them for a day? it's not just the shoe that needs to be broken in, it's your body that has to adapt to the shoe. i could go on and on about shoes screw up the way your body is supposed to work, but that's been done to death on these boards.

I like the theory that our legs and feet are designed to absorb shock - true , except , the evolution took place running on grassy fields in Africa, and not running on pavement or worse, concrete. What say you to that bare foot minimalists?

Can you give me some tips? Your post convinced me I should run barefoot, but I think the concrete might be a bit rough on my feet. How do you do it?

Surely the best thing would be for a major shoe company to make a cushioned supportive shoe that doesn't have the big heel which distorts the natural stride pattern.

I think an even better idea would be to A) do what the japanese do with the whole training shoes vs. fitness runners and or B) just bring back the shoes from the 60's, 70's and put them into the mainstream market. Makes you wonder why sports medicine has grown so much in the past 2 decades...high heeled shoes...hmm?

My thoughts, not sure if they are right or wrong. I think it was said best that running is an experiement of your own and you must find what works best for you and not bash others who find the approach that works best for them.