vector wrote:It's easy to see why Pre, patron saint of all hammerheads, didn't like Norpoth--they viewed training from completely different perspectives. Which one got an Olympic medal?
I believe Pre hated the way Norpoth sat in behind & used a huge kick. Funny how all that slower more aerobic training allowed Norpoth to kick so hard from 600 meters out.
dc449 wrote:
Renato -
Thanks for this great thread. What would you change in his system in regards to training (besides the sleeping and eating)?
Oops! Sorry ANTONIO. I was just looking at the Canova thread and the name carried over.
late bloomer say:
>What I liked about the van Aaken method was the simplicity. <
Try this on:
Malmo's Manifesto
I'm coaching right now, as we speak. But a lot of you don't recognize it as such because it's different than anything you've ever seen. I was lucky. In high school I had a coach that knew nothing about running, and yet he knew everything there was to know about coaching and motivation. Take a look at these modern-day, New Age coaching "geniuses" that have taken over. They've got their Level I,II, and III coaching certificates in one hand, and they can recite verse by verse from their running-geek exercise physio-nonsense running books; yet they don't know a damn thing about running or competition! Did Bill Bowerman or Jumbo Elliot ever have a silly coaching certificate? Get out!
Last time I checked, running was a sport, an athletic COMPETITION - not some sort of laboratory-rat time trial. If you'll agree with me that it's all about competition, then don't you think that most of your focus should be on preparing yourself for competition? For that you need real coaching.
Coaching is about motivating and provoking athletes into doing what they never thought they could do before. How the heck do you think those pre-pubescent little girls do amazing things in gymnastics? IT'S COACHING, DAMMIT - not some "Jim Beam's Gymnastics Formula" book!
Ever hear me tell anyone how much to run? NOPE. Ever hear me tell anyone about my 12-step contrived training schedules? NOPE. What do I tell you guys? It goes like this, baby:
Run twice a day, as many days as you can. Hopefully five, six or seven days a week.
Run more. How much? I dunno. You figure it out, but find out for yourself.
Run it faster.
Love running and LOVE racing.
Stay focused.
Set goals and don't be afraid to fail.
Listen to your body and don't be afraid to rest.
Compete WITH your comrades in sweat - never AGAINST them.
Smile a lot.
Each time you read my words you fall further and further into my trap. I've already planted the seed into your subconscious. My Master Plan is to take over, one click at a time. Soon you'll be lifting weights at my behest, only they won't be barbells, they'll be pods, and you'll be loading them onto flatbed trucks destined for the rest of the world! There you have it - Malmo's Manifesto. I told you it would be less than four pages."
- former 3000-meter steeplechase American record holder, 1:01 half-marathoner, and 2:12 marathoner George "Malmo" Malley
dc449
My name isn´t Renato, that´s just Antonio but i would love toi have the Renato knowledge...
Regarding your question. What would you change. I think that in all human issues we learn from knowledge, and experience, but that 2 takes time.
I think that some van Aaken ideas they may be seen in their historical context. We were in the late 60´s - the best decade for changing and also radicalism. I think that van Aaken did use that "spirit". The old shell are no more usefull. he needed to take the attention with some excentricism. So, in some aspects his training that´s very radical. But the ideas are genuine and original. With more time - van Aaken would do his own training modulation, to be more soft in some aspects.
Of course that actually, Lactate Training Management that´s a more accurate training concept. But van Aaken - as you will see with Norport schedule that i want to post - he did uses LT runs in negative split pace. Áctually ther´s not such a need for that very slow continuous runs as it used to be. Also when van Aaken says that ther´s no need to use tempo runs - he is just get the attention for the wrong use of fast paces/anaerobic training. Because he uses that often.
Also one point i would change - that the discrimination of what runner you are? If you are an average runner or a beginner that´s correct to train mainly aerobic runs almost exclusively, but if you are an advanced runner, top class runner you nedd a bit more of fast workouts.
Besides, i don´t not deny the benefit of the diet to lose weight. That´s not so utopic as some may think. When he says about his pefromances estimate for the future decades, people haven´t belive, but the perfromances are here to prove that he was right. About sleep i don´t know ! he has a curious idea that´s the first hours of sleep that what´s important and also that half an hour of sleep during the day light you take more benefits from that than all night long sleeping. I reaaly don´t know - that´s not trainig technique my area, you need to ask the physiologists.
Hodgie-san, I am familiar with Malmo's document. That's the way running should be. Thank you for posting that.
Antonio:
Thank you for be so kind and gracious towards me. Coming from you, that means a lot.
I am limited on time at the moment, as my work and coaching responsibilities are now are time consuming. I do want to read the posts from this thread more closely and make an effort to encourage the development of ideas more fully, for everyone's benefit.
I am a big believer of the Van Aaken method. I read a book written about his methods published by Runner's World in the early 1980s. I don' know where the book is now, perhaps packed away, but the important things I learned about his methods were these:
1) Run lots of distance to improve aerobic ability.
2) Lower your body weight, in a healthy way.
3) Do some regular faster aerobic running, almost daily, as part of your long runs. So there is modulation of work, some very slow, some faster, very little quite fast.
4) Health is the most important thing you can gain from aeorbic conditioning and eating less food. Without health, athletic performance does not matter.
5) Women have natural endurance. By running long distances, they can develop it to such and extent that they will perform at or close to the level of men. The longer the run, the better women will do because they burn fat as an energy source better.
6)Enjoy life by exercising. Without exercise, you will deteriorate and therefore have a less enjoyable experience.
Tinman
dc449 wrote:
What would you change in his system in regards to training (besides the sleeping and eating)?
Thinking twice about your question whene i was training i forget one detail.
Of corse that van Aaken that´s the base and the fundaments for any "healthly training" as Tinman says.
But actually we are more and more familiar with Lactate Training Management that we weren´t in the past. Lt workouts are more frequent and we put an emphasis in it´s interest among several training zones - actually we pay more and miore attention and much focus and we are very criterious about Lt workouts.
The threads that are the Lt issue are so popular and with so much interest and participation that´s because that´s a top issue.
But regarding van Aaken training that´s also true that actually the modern training direction that´s do use more and more training specifics. Thus i think that no one may neglet/refuse the value of the intervals - and a few of the interval training concepts that van Aaken did refuse. Ok, interval training that´s overate but if we think in shape improvement to a certain extend we can´t go out of intervals. In intervals noone can run away from the pace, the total set distance, each set distance unite and all have to do with EXTENSIVITY, pace INTENSITY but also with INTERVAL DURATION. So, we can reject the interst of the interval duration (shorten intervals, make them actives, incomplete intervals). That´s it that van Aaken in it´s radicalism did refuse - for him the intervals are also quite complete interval recover. I work with uncomplete intervals to a certain extend.
Thanks Antonio, your contribution is appreciated a lot! It seems that the Van Aaken methods bear some similarities to youre Portuguese methods, such as the short but slow (relatively) intervals with a continuous recoveries. However it seems that he advocates much more overall volume, while I get the impression that your athletes tend to run smaller quantities, but at a higher quality. I base this on Silva's running 40 min am/pm and Lopes' running of no more than 90 minutes. Am I correct in these assumptions?
Sad to read that Norpoth is dead. Odd that the runner who annoyed Prefontaine more than any other rival should die the same way Pre did.
I'm just quoting van Aaken. Maybe Norpoth walked for 30 seconds and stood for 30, because there was interview in RW with EvA who gave the one minute/one minute breakdown. As to the sleeping, van Aaken evidently didn't do it much and didn't think it was necessary. Joan Ullyot, who followed him around for his US tours and translated for him told me that he only slept about 4 hours per night.
Excellent point about Norpoth who had a very lengthy and successful career. Munich was his third Olympics.
bump
keep it going
Not to be grim, but how long ago did Norpoth die?
And on a less grim note, you may recall that Manfred Steffney has a younger brother, Herbert, I believe, who was a very good veteran's marathoner. Do you know if Herbert also used van Aaken's method?
dc449
Well, once again you need to understand van aaken in his time context - from late 40´s to early 70´s. Ther´s no female official competitions more than 800m ! In the 70´s To say that a man must train regualarly some 20-30kilos (12-18miles) a day tha´s atonishing, Only Lydiard and a few ones precribe that training based in aerobic volume. But actually a professional runner that do 140miles a week that´s familiar to them.
I think that when van Aaken speaks about "slow mileage" he wants to put the attention in the benefits of that, more than that he really used that mileage for his runners.
When you will see some Harald Norporth 5000m schedules he do less mileage than Rui Silva actually ! Norport rarely do more than 75-80m long ones !
I tgink that another reason why van Aaken prescribes so much training in slow aerobic - apart from the benefits - is that in training you need to use some training "charge", that´s to say your training modulation needs to run in some effort direction. All training that´s an overcompensation.
As he doesn´t use quite demanding/hard/tough efforts in the intensity direction, neither in the interval training direction, neither in the Lt direction - he uses all this pace zones with moderation - he needs to do the overcompensation with slow mileage. Do you see my point ?
In every good training plan you need to use training modulation in a certain effort direction. Ther´s no training demand if the training that´s not a "challenge" to a certin effort. Thus van Aaken uses the "slow aerobic runs" up to a certain "excess", as some use LT or intervals or speed as specifics. For van Aaken the aerobics play a role as "specific training", and the only solution for the aerobic output that´s to work extensively - more miles, moire training, more training duration...
Well, i heard that from a friend, i never read that Norport did die as i did read about Prefontaine. But that happens after van Aaken dead, so after 1984.
What i did read in a french magazine namedf "Mirroir de L´athletisme" is that Norport did retire from running with 34 years old, and he comes back (once again) to his local football (soccer) team to help them.
What i know is that Manfred Steffny himself he used to run some european marathons as a master, and once he did participate in 10000m track masters champs.
Norporth is dead ? As far as I know he still lives in Germany.
He was a special guest at the Münster - Marathon 2004.
Check out:
http://www.volksbank-muenster-marathon.de/de/dwhh_lebenslaeufe.html
The thin man on the right is Norpoth.
Herbert Steffny has his own webside:
Runara
Many thanks ! Norport is alive and well. My friends were wrong and i´m wrong also. No doubt that´s the same "hair loss" look like from Norport in the photo !
Wait a moment and i will post his training schedule.
Steffny is also in
I came across this on a marathon training site. "Van Aaken Pickups"
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"Van Aaken Pickups (VAP). This follows the "horse to the stable phenomenon." Have you ever ridden and noticed that the animal speeds up as it approaches the destination barn and food? Ernst Van Aaken, a German physician and coach, developed this approach for his athletes. During the later stages of the run gradually pick up the tempo. Go at a pace that takes you a bit out of your comfort zone. This is not intended to be an all out sprint. Gradually slow down and either resume your earlier pace or come to a complete stop. Do not come to a sudden and quick stop. Finish about a block from your home or gym and conclude with a short walk. VAP are a good method of introducing speed and running efficiency to your workouts."
Van Aaken ideas in 1975 – second part
Q: In training do you ever advise all-out of any sort ? Is it necessary to “race the heart occasionally” ?
VA: An example is Maria Strickling. She ran interval-type training for 10 years and her PB was 2:20. Then she began long training and at the end of every 12 kilos run she would do 6-8X 60 metres not all out but very fast. She improved her 800m to 2:06 and her 100m from 13.4 to 12.5.
Norport learned that after running 15 kilometres in the woods. He had to run 3-5X500m, never faster than 80sec. A little bit of fast training seems to be enough.
Q: You talked earlier about the importance of low weight. Can you describe in more detail your recommendations on diet ?
VA: the scientists say that a man needs 1700 calories a day and a woman 1500 caloriesm may be 3000m if they work. This is all nonsense to me. During the second world war and just after, the german population as a whole was only eating 800-1000 calories a day. And there were almost no heart attacks despite tremendous stress from bombing losing their homes and families etc.
In 1956, there were 38000 deaths from heart attacks. And now (1975) we have 250000 a year. This rise in heart desease has paralleled the rise in food consumption. So my conclusion from this is that it doesn´t matter so much what you eat, only that you eat very little. If you eat moderately with a balanced diet, you cannot lack for vitamins, minerals and trace elements. You keep the weight down if you just control the quantity. If you are sitting here you are using about ¼ litter of oxygen per minute. If you are walking you use about ½ litter. But if you run at a pace at which you can converse, you use 2 litters – that´s 8 times as much as if you were sitting. From that comes the basic rule of training, which is eat little and get lots of oxygen. To burn one kilogram of fat, you have to use 2000 litters of oxygen to do it. A 2:30 marathon uses 500 letters of oxygen, so you need to run 4 marathons to lose one kilo of fat ! THEREFORE, RUNNING IS NOT THE WAY TO LOSE WEIGHT. You have to fast.
Q: What do you mean by fast ?
VA: eat only 1000 calories a day if you want to lose weight. Train when hungry so the body learns to switch over toi burning fat, instead of carbos. Run at leat 14 hours after eating. If you can teach the body to shift gears this way, you can run 500 kilos (300 miles),
Q: what are your views on carbo-hydrate-loading before a race ?
VA: This doesn´t do much good. The most glycogen you can ever load is 600 grams, and that´s enough for only about 35 kilos (20 miles). Then you have to switch over to burning fat.
If one has the idea that through eating and drinking he become a better runner, this is pratically and physiologically unproven. What´s important is the oxygen you use, You use oxygen by running slowly, at least 10-20kilometers daily.
THE END
Antonio Cabral wrote:
Q: What do you mean by fast ?
VA: eat only 1000 calories a day if you want to lose weight. Train when hungry so the body learns to switch over toi burning fat, instead of carbos. Run at leat 14 hours after eating. If you can teach the body to shift gears this way, you can run 500 kilos (300 miles),
THE END
Dr. van Aaken's ideas about fasting have some merit with regard to ridding the body of toxins, but not for the purpose of training the body to switch over to burning fat. That is something I believed for many years. I would do all of my long runs without any breakfast believing that it was teaching my body to burn fat more efficiently. Over the years we have learned a lot more.
This article contradicts Dr. van Aaken's theory about fasting to train the body to burn fat:
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Fast to Burn fat?
Source: Ellen Coleman
Q: If I want to increase my body's fat burning ability, should I skip breakfast and drink only water on workouts?
A: Ah, the "I burn more fat by not eating" myth. The short answer is no, exercising while fasting does not increase fat metabolism. Fat may contribute slightly more to the fuel mixture while fasting. However, regular exercise is beneficial for weight loss because it helps to create a calorie deficit. The fuel being burned to create this calorie deficit (fat or carbohydrate) is probably not important.
I'm going to make several comments about breakfast, exercise refueling and also about fat burning:
The main goal of breakfast is to ensure adequate blood glucose levels for the workout. After an overnight fast, liver glycogen (the source of blood glucose) is about 80% gone. Working out on empty for 45 to 60 minutes at a moderate intensity is unlikely to harm performance.
However, no breakfast may hamper performance during a long, hard workout (over an hour) workout that requires a ready supply of blood glucose.
The key to increasing fat metabolism is through endurance training, not skipping breakfast. Aerobic exercise starts the fat burning process via increases in fat burning hormones (epinephrine, norepinephrine, and growth hormone) and decreased insulin release. This hormonal milieu favors fat metabolism and occurs whether or not one has eaten breakfast.
Chronic endurance training increases fat metabolism by increasing the number and size of mitochondria (which contain the enzymes necessary to burn fat) and increasing capillary density (greater delivery of blood and oxygen which is necessary to burn fat).
For a competitive athlete, it is generally counterproductive to exercise on empty. Skipping breakfast also does not increase fat metabolism - that occurs as a benefit/adaptation of endurance training.
Recommendations
I also do not recommend depriving the body of fuel on long workouts to increase fat metabolism. Here's why:
1) Over the past 20 years, there has been a large amount of research demonstrating that consuming carbohydrate during exercise lasting an hour or longer enables athletes to exercise longer and/or sprint harder at the end of exercise.
2) By consuming fuel during training, the quality of the training session is better. You get more out of your training.
3) Athletes need carbohydrate to burn fat properly = fat burns in a carbohydrate flame.
4) Endurance training in and of itself increases fat metabolism and glycogen storage. As a result of endurance training, your glycogen stores are greater at the start of exercise and you go through them more slowly because you're burning more fat.
5) Consuming fuel during training decreases the stress response (your cortisol or stress hormone levels are lower) and bolsters the immune system (natural killer cell activity is higher) so you're less likely to get an infection.
Posted: October 4, 2004
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