Best legit 10K in History

Are you guys ignorant or what? She has the best damn doctors in the world. Come on!

Martin

Well said. Lets not forget Paula has improved from World Junior Champion through to the now (unoffical) World Record holder over a period of some 10 years. I'm not going to try and repeat what Martin has so eloquently put - other than to agree and say Paula - clean , Wang - dirty.

Jason - I'm surprised at you - normally you seem to have what I would call a pretty accurate handle on drugs in sport but to claim that Wang was clean - get real. How do you judge this - by whom you would bang and who you wouldn't?

I must also chime in and agree with Martin's post.

Jason,

I am relatively new to this board, but I have really been enjoying you open and honest posts. However, there is NO doubt that Wang was on something, or that her 10k WR was a lap short. Other than her amazing 29:31 her best time in the 10k was close to 30:40. Doesn't it seem strange that she never got within 1 minute of her best time?

-Clay

Is there no tape of Wang's WR run? Can't we just count the laps? The fact that the Chinese have no evidence makes the record doubly suspicious.

China in the 80s and 90s was an exact replica of East Germany in the 60s and 70s. The government decided to use sports to enhance its national image. Kids with talent were taken from their families and placed in camps where they were systematically doped from an early age, Wang was one of those kids.

This is not a debate about which runner is dirty and which runner is clean....Wang is dirty and of that there is no doubt. The debate is about wether Paula Radcliffe is dirty or not.

I have yet to see one iota of evidence point towards guilt other than some great recent performances which everyone has seen coming for a long time. She'll break the WR in Chicago and the rumors will start again. She'll run 29:30 next year and we'll hear yet more rumors.

Why do you think Paula held that NO EPO sign at the world championships last year? She did it because she knew that no clean runner would ever again be viewed as such if they ran fast and that drugs had therefore completely corrupted the sport.

There are no more heroes in athletics because as soon as they do something heroic the fingers begin to point.

marathonman wrote:

If you are suspicious of Wang Junxia then you must be suspicious of Ratcliffe otherwise you are just being inconsistent.

Except that Ma Junren and his crew were all busted for EPO use a couple of years ago. Chinese women are dirty as hell across the athletic board (swimmers included) and everyone knows it but you.

And who's "Ratcliffe?"

She should have gallo-walked and a sub 30 would be hers. Why do these runners have it burned in their heads that running the entire way is the key?

Very funny, you know who I mean.

If any of you looked at the tapes of Wang Junxia's 3k and 10k wins in the 1993 world champs and you see how fast she finished the last 600m in the 3k (60sec/lap) and the last 1k in the 10k (well under 3mins) it is quite clear that she was able to run well under 8-20 for 3k and well under 30 mins for 10k which she did do a little later at the asian games that year.

I doubt if there was any miscounting of the laps at the world champs that year. And she had no positive tests from these championships but I agree this is not a guarantee of a clean athlete.

Inicidently everyone accused her taking drugs at the world champs before she went on to break the world records.

Ma Junren is a renegade coach - the chinese official sports bodies could not stand him when he was having these successes. Given that all of you seem to think that China is such a corrupt place, it does not seem far fetched to suppose that maybe the chinese officials had something to do with the ensuing problems that happened in Ma's group.

Be more consistent and not just biased against eastern countries.

Show me the proof that Ma Junren's athlete's were busted for EPO.

You are pulling that outta your ass.

jason

here you are .

It's ambiguous,but later confirmed six all tested positive for EPO.

"Chinese runners work hard" my ass- show me ONE world-class performance from that disgraced nation in the past five years. Oh, yeah, maybe they "work" so hard they don't have time to race anymore.

China purged and starved millions of it's own people in the "Cultural Revolution". Doping and cheating at little games of running around in circles is nothing for that regime, if it suits their aims. When it conflicts with their aims (like trying to get the Olympic bid) they pull the plug, and there are no longer the two-legged biochemical waste bins showing up on the track.

I just hope my girlfriend doesn't have to run against any of those manipulated freaks in 2008 when she competes there.

Paula is a "registered asthmatic" how convienient.

She is on the asthma list, ok to take steroidal inhalers.

I don't know what you want to say anonymously.

But all right?asthma is not such easy thing as you are thinking.Yes she said she was not restricted by asthma ,but often it does to human.

Contrary to most people(maybe including athletes)'s idea,asthma medicine enhance performance litte.

Beside her asthma is widely recognised,and you remember IAAF guy accused of UK athletes high rate of asthma?but I wonder if he knew that UK is suffuring from asthma and 7?`10 % of people in the UK are said to be suffuring from asthma(normaly 1 %).It's not so strange for her.

Martin and others, your arguments are self-defeating. You dont even have your facts straight, and you are reading into things that ChristianScience Monitor article.

First, Chinese women did not medal in the 800 meters at Stuttgart in 1993. Their highest placing was sixth.

Chinese women did win the 1500, swept the 3000, and 1st and 2nd in the 10km. (No 5000 that year). That makes a whole lotta piss in a whole lotta cups!!! Any positive tests? NADA.

As for your argument that Wang Junxia did not perform well, if at all, outside China, I beg to differ. EXCUSE ME, she was the 1996 Olympic 5000 meter Champ in ATLANTA and the 10000 meters Champ in GERMANY in 1993. That's a whole lotta air miles.

The Christian Science Monitor article does not say specifically that Ma Junren's runners tested positive for EPO.....it was the ROWERS. The runners may have withdrawn due to injury, above normal hematocrit, poor fitness or whatever. Keep in mind that the Chinese Government was doing everything possible to have a big face before the 2008 Host City decision. Having any positive tests in Sydney would have made them "lose face" bigtime.

They probably cut some healthy flesh out with the cancer. They were not taking any chances.

As for the other statement that the Chinese are not working hard....I beg to differ. I am here in Kunming China RIGHT NOW. This morning I saw how hard they work....DAMNED HARD. A group of about 10 men and women were doing a long tempo run at 5:30am while the coaches were yelling at them.

As for your argument that the 1996 Olympic Women's 5000 meters champion was a MAN...gimme a break. It is hilarious.

Tell you what....YOU come out here to China. You gather your evidence from PRIMARY SOURCES and get to know this great country like I am right now.....THEN YOU DECIDE.

If you are going to let the Western Media make up your mind about these countries, you are not being fair. The Western Media makes all your impressionable Americans think that these countries that I truly love, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, China, Malaysia, etc. look like a basketcase of disease, war, corruption, poverty, economic problems, etc. etc.

THEN WHY DO I FEEL SO HAPPY, SAFE AND CONTENT OUT HERE IN ASIA???!?!?!!??!!? Why are these Chinese people so friendly to The Hairy Barbarian, Crazy Jason???

For the last 4 days, I have seen China first hand, the way that it should be seen. I have never met friendlier, harder working people. My sense is that Chinese people are an honorable, good natured people who believe in fair play and honesty.

My gut feeling is that Wang Junxia was NOT on drugs, and neither is Radcliffe. I would love to see Paula break the 10km record, and I think that she can do it!

Jason

Are you listening to me?

Can't you see this?

''It's ambiguous,but later confirmed six all tested positive for EPO.''

Please don't run away from the facts.See the strict facts.It's not like you .

remained one who attended Sydney admitted that six all tested positive for EPO and cried joke theories and was laughed by media.

Blah blah lbah blah blah hard-working blah blah friendlier, hard-working blah blah blah fair-play, honesty blah blah blah...

The last FIVE YEARS.

Martin and others, your arguments are self-defeating. You dont even have your facts straight, and you are reading into things that ChristianScience Monitor article.

Jason, I?m afraid it?s you that you that are guilty of apply inconsistent criteria to this discussion ? and the broader discussion of drugs in sport. While it?s true that Junxia has yet to produce a positive drug sample (as far as we know) it?s also true that KK ? an athlete you have, on numerous occasions, accused of taking drugs ? has yet to provide the same.Now, I?m no logician, never have been, never likely to be (at least not full-time, anyway) but I can spot "internal inconsistencies" when I see them. And your argument, my friend, is the one that?s doomed to failure, not mine.Now ? to address your points in order, if I may:First, Chinese women did not medal in the 800 meters at Stuttgart in 1993. Their highest placing was sixth.Chinese women did win the 1500, swept the 3000, and 1st and 2nd in the 10km. (No 5000 that year). That makes a whole lotta piss in a whole lotta cups!!! Any positive tests? NADA.As for your argument that Wang Junxia did not perform well, if at all, outside China, I beg to differ. EXCUSE ME, she was the 1996 Olympic 5000 meter Champ in ATLANTA and the 10000 meters Champ in GERMANY in 1993. That's a whole lotta air miles.Keep in mind that the Chinese Government was doing everything possible to have a big face before the 2008 Host City decision. Having any positive tests in Sydney would have made them "lose face" bigtime. They probably cut some healthy flesh out with the cancer. They were not taking any chances.As for the other statement that the Chinese are not working hard....I beg to differ. I am here in Kunming China RIGHT NOW. This morning I saw how hard they work....DAMNED HARD. A group of about 10 men and women were doing a long tempo run at 5:30am while the coaches were yelling at them. YOU come out here to China. You gather your evidence from PRIMARY SOURCES and get to know this great country like I am right now.....THEN YOU DECIDE.As for your use of this technique to defend Junxia, well, it will be far more effective when you can find Ma J?s camp and get permission to enter, train and observe. Perhaps then I will accept the ?walk a mile in their shoes? line of defence. Until then, it?s pretty hollow>If you are going to let the Western Media make up your mind about these countries, you are not being fair. The Western Media makes all your impressionable Americans think that these countries that I truly love, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, China, Malaysia, etc. look like a basketcase of disease, war, corruption, poverty, economic problems, etc. etc.THEN WHY DO I FEEL SO HAPPY, SAFE AND CONTENT OUT HERE IN ASIA???!?!?!!??!!? Why are these Chinese people so friendly to The Hairy Barbarian, Crazy Jason???For the last 4 days, I have seen China first hand, the way that it should be seen. I have never met friendlier, harder working people. My sense is that Chinese people are an honorable, good natured people who believe in fair play and honesty.No one is questioning the obvious fondness you have for South-East Asia and the sub-continent. I?m sure you?re treated respectfully, kept safe, and accepted as an individual. That being said, this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The western media ? whatever that cliché might include ? is not on some sort of mission to discredit Asians as a race, nor it?s athletes. To illustrate: When was the last time you heard the western media accusing Asian athletes of doping in gymnastics? Or table tennis? Or speed skating? Or diving? If the west was so dead-set on portraying SE Asian sport as a cesspool of corruption, those sports would be obvious targets, considering the domination of the region. The reason swimming and athletics are singled out is because members of the media have the analytical ability to see what you won?t allow yourself to admit: That the Chinese have participated in the systematic doping of their athletes in those sports for most of the 1990s.>My gut feeling is that Wang Junxia was NOT on drugs, and neither is Radcliffe. I would love to see Paula break the 10km record, and I think that she can do it!Martin

I?m not exactly sure how you?ve proven my argument is self-defeating "OED: adjective an attempt or action doomed to failure because of internal inconsistencies"

Jason, I?m afraid it?s you that you that are guilty of apply inconsistent criteria to this discussion ? and the broader discussion of drugs in sport. While it?s true that Junxia has yet to produce a positive drug sample (as far as we know) it?s also true that KK ? an athlete you have, on numerous occasions, accused of taking drugs ? has yet to provide the same.

Now, I?m no logician, never have been, never likely to be (at least not full-time, anyway) but I can spot "internal inconsistencies" when I see them. And your argument, my friend, is the one that?s doomed to failure, not mine.

Now ? to address your points in order, if I may:

Jason wrote: First, Chinese women did not medal in the 800 meters at Stuttgart in 1993. Their highest placing was sixth.

Chinese women did win the 1500, swept the 3000, and 1st and 2nd in the 10km. (No 5000 that year). That makes a whole lotta piss in a whole lotta cups!!! Any positive tests? NADA.

Right ? I was mistaken in including the 800 in the medals sweep from Stuttgart, I admit. Yet that doesn?t take away from the fact that those Women came out of nowhere to dominate the entire meeting in a manner that would make the Kenyan men gush with pride. In no other meeting, before or since, have the Chinese women replicated what they achieved in the summer of 1993. Ben Johnson pissed in a whole lotta of cups prior to September 1988. Enough said.

Jason wrote: As for your argument that Wang Junxia did not perform well, if at all, outside China, I beg to differ. EXCUSE ME, she was the 1996 Olympic 5000 meter Champ in ATLANTA and the 10000 meters Champ in GERMANY in 1993. That's a whole lotta air miles.

I have never suggested that she didn?t perform well outside of China ? but I will say that I don?t consider performances in two international meetings sufficient enough evidence to convince me that she?s been adequately tested for?anything. Once again, a lot of dirty runners made it through Atlanta without begin detected. Junxia, I suspect, was cycled through her injections effectively enough so as to avoid detection. No mystery there.

Jason wrote: Keep in mind that the Chinese Government was doing everything possible to have a big face before the 2008 Host City decision. Having any positive tests in Sydney would have made them "lose face" bigtime.

They probably cut some healthy flesh out with the cancer. They were not taking any chances.

So, you do admit there was a cancer to purge? Your previous arguments put the Chinese success down to hard work. Now you?re suggesting there might have been some abuse going on within the Ma J camp.

Jason wrote: As for the other statement that the Chinese are not working hard....I beg to differ. I am here in Kunming China RIGHT NOW. This morning I saw how hard they work....DAMNED HARD. A group of about 10 men and women were doing a long tempo run at 5:30am while the coaches were yelling at them.

This is simply too childish to respond to seriously, but I will say this: athletes train hard, here, in the US and in China. This does not make them special cases. I can get on a train to Teddington virtually any day of the week and see scores of world class athletes training hard with "coaches yelling at them". I hardly think this is enough evidence to prove that they aren?t also taking drugs.

Jason wrote: YOU come out here to China. You gather your evidence from PRIMARY SOURCES and get to know this great country like I am right now.....THEN YOU DECIDE.

Once again, I cite internal inconsistencies. I suggest you train with KK before you accuse him of taking drugs, and collect your evidence on him based on primary research.

As for your use of this technique to defend Junxia, well, it will be far more effective when you can find Ma J?s camp and get permission to enter, train and observe. Perhaps then I will accept the ?walk a mile in their shoes? line of defence. Until then, it?s pretty hollow.

Jason wrote: If you are going to let the Western Media make up your mind about these countries, you are not being fair. The Western Media makes all your impressionable Americans think that these countries that I truly love, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, China, Malaysia, etc. look like a basketcase of disease, war, corruption, poverty, economic problems, etc. etc.

THEN WHY DO I FEEL SO HAPPY, SAFE AND CONTENT OUT HERE IN ASIA???!?!?!!??!!? Why are these Chinese people so friendly to The Hairy Barbarian, Crazy Jason???

For the last 4 days, I have seen China first hand, the way that it should be seen. I have never met friendlier, harder working people. My sense is that Chinese people are an honorable, good natured people who believe in fair play and honesty.

Sigh?Jason, to begin, I?m not American. A man as well travelled as yourself should know that English is a widely spoken language outside of the US, and that the Internet is a fantastic facilitator of cross-border conversations.

No one is questioning the obvious fondness you have for South-East Asia and the sub-continent. I?m sure you?re treated respectfully, kept safe, and accepted as an individual. That being said, this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The western media ? whatever that cliché might include ? is not on some sort of mission to discredit Asians as a race, nor it?s athletes. To illustrate: When was the last time you heard the western media accusing Asian athletes of doping in gymnastics? Or table tennis? Or speed skating? Or diving? If the west was so dead-set on portraying SE Asian sport as a cesspool of corruption, those sports would be obvious targets, considering the domination of the region.

The reason swimming and athletics are singled out is because members of the media have the analytical ability to see what you won?t allow yourself to admit: That the Chinese have participated in the systematic doping of their athletes in those sports for most of the 1990s.

Jason wrote: My gut feeling is that Wang Junxia was NOT on drugs, and neither is Radcliffe. I would love to see Paula break the 10km record, and I think that she can do it!

You?re entitled to your gut feeling ? and I respect you for digging in and defending it. But don?t suggest that my argument was self-defeating. It wasn?t. Yours, however, was ? and still is.

Martin

Did they test for EPO in 1993?

No.Because they weren't able to.And you know,even now,it is difficult to find EPO cheaters by tests done before and after the race.