Renato Canova: Daniele Meucci Training

renato

whaever "fear" you think tergat had, the bottom line is that he ran a 2"04'55wr which was huge improvement on wr at time

he also said that he had plenty of energy at the end & if he had pushed earlier he couda run ~ 2"04'30

you think baldini was in ~ 2"04'30 shape in athens ???

Funny to see americans talking about doping when the greatest scandals of doping history,namely Armstrong and BALCO, were in the US and with an organization similar to the one used by DDR and USSR.

Moreover people like Hellebuyck or Bernard Lagat moved to the US in the 90s to use EPO.

During the last Faraggiana-Gigliotti (5x2000) test before Athens Olympic Games Baldini obtained the following results without any rabbit:

-3:06/km 0.9 mmol

-3:04 1.6 mmol

-3:00 1.6 mmol

-2:57 1.7 mmol

-2:45 3.8 mmol

Now based on my experience, given the previous test, in an ideal marathon (Berlin, Chicago with no wind and decent temperature, Rotterdam etc...) the upper bound of Baldini’s performance was at about a pace of 2:56-57 per km, having a final result of 2:04:00-2:04:30.

If we are less conservative, then we can start thinking about what Baldini COULD have run at 2.0 mmol and I presume it would be very close (2:03:30-2:03:45 ??) to current WR, even though I’m a bit skeptical.

no offense but i'm not a great believer in lactate levels as predictors of performance

baldini certainly didn't look a 2"04 - 2"04'30 guy in athens & i watched race in city centre

his problem was lack of basic speed

no matter how good your endurance, if your intrinsic 10k speed at the time is no better than 27-low/mid, that severely limits your 10k ability

mathematically

27'00 = 59'12 = 2"04'57

no one is running 2"04+ unless their intrinsic 10k ability on the day is ~ 27-flat

if baldini on the day had say 27'15 ability, above indicates

~ 2"06-flat

& i'm applying that to all africans who have run M

if baldini was significantly faster than this of supposed ~ 27'15, then his "physiology" is different/better than any african who s run M

EPO_running wrote:

Funny to see americans talking about doping when the greatest scandals of doping history,namely Armstrong and BALCO, were in the US and with an organization similar to the one used by DDR and USSR.

Moreover people like Hellebuyck or Bernard Lagat moved to the US in the 90s to use EPO.

It’s true, 90% of American Track&Field in the 80s-00s is made by dopers and Lance Armstrong’s affair is a clear example of how complex an organisation to dope a champion could be in the US, but we should never forget that Italy was a worldwide hub for EPO and blood doping in the 80s (with Conconi) and the 90s (with Ferrari-Cecchini).

Moreover, Lucio Gigliotti isn’t an angel in these regards. During Conconi’s trial in 2000 people (e.g. Sandro Donati, now at WADA) testified that, at least before Los Angeles 1984, Gigliotti praised the benefits of auto transfusions and used it on Italian athletes before 1985 ban (e.g. Cova who was trained by Rondelli at the time) and AFTER the 1985 ban.

To Renato, I think you spent a lot of time in Tirrenia training italian athletes. Now, is on record that at a certain point Gigliotti stated to Donati:

“so far you talked with your coach (Donati), now it’s my turn in behalf of the Federation and you, Donati, shut up! Our goal is to abstain the best results possible, and we use any tool to reach it. I'm proposing you to do auto blood transfusions to gain between 3” and 5” in a 1500”

This happened in 1984, when you probably were already in Tirrenia with Gigliotti and was financed directly by the CONI (italian olympic federation) and by its secretary Mario Pescante. [i.e. CONI bought a cooling centrifuge for the University of Ferrara {delibera Nr. 473 del 24.05.1984} or other benefits ; if you are interested all the “delibere” are on records]

ventolin^3 wrote:

mathematically

27'00 = 59'12 = 2"04'57

no one is running 2"04+ unless their intrinsic 10k ability on the day is ~ 27-flat

if baldini on the day had say 27'15 ability, above indicates

~ 2"06-flat

& i'm applying that to all africans who have run M

White athletes tend to have better indexes of marathon endurance ( see the japaneses at about 97%). I don’t see any problem in something like:

27'20 = 60'00 = 2"04'30

which gives an index of 96.38% which isn’t spectacular given the specific marathon training done by Baldini. Your 27'15 ~ 2h06 equivalence makes no sense at all.

Do you want an example? Geoffrey Mutai in 2010 ran 27’33 at the African Championships when they started pushing away in a group of four early on (so pretty fast race), and he ran 2h04’55 four months before in Rotterdam and 2h05’10 two months after in Berlin.

By the way, still talking about Mutai you have in 2010:

10000 - Nairobi 26/06

27’27

10km road - S.Juan 28/02

27’44

HM - New Delhi 21/11

59’38

Marathon - Rotterdam 11/04

2h04’55

an equivalence of

27’30 = 59’40 = 2h05

is that a joke ???

africans lack endurance factor ???

i do

it's a joke

do you think carlos lopes lacked significant M endurance when running 2"07+wr & year before had run 27'17 ???

it is a nonsense approach

you don't think africans do "specific" M training ???

why ???

are you unable to think ???

it gives 2"03'23wr as being = ~ 26'37 for a track 10k

what do you think the M wr is worth for a track 10k ???

err...

that was in nairobi beating kisorio who went 26'54 the next year

try more like 26'40/26'50 if that had been at sea-level

go use ncaa altitude app + mureika's wind/altitude calculator

try again...

do you think carlos lopes lacked significant M endurance when running 2"07+wr & year before had run 27'17 ???

Yes he did. In fact their specific long run started @slow paces and then increased only after 20-25k, which is fundamentally different from the 40k training that Kipsang does in 2h03 or the 36k the Italians do @98% of marathon pace in S.Moritz.

that was in nairobi beating kisorio who went 26'54 the next year

try more like 26'40/26'50 if that had been at sea-level

here you show your problems. First, it’s true that Kisorio ran in Eugene that time but then got busted after few months for doping (and not only EPO!). In the same race, for instance, Abshero ( a 2h04 marathoner) ran his PB of 27’48: how does your calculator explain this?

Then, even admitting Mutai was able to run 26’50 for a 10000, it is the same Mutai who ran 2h03 in Boston and 2h05 in NYC which makes him a 2h02’30 athlete. So how does your calculator works with the following equivalence 26’50 = 2h02’30 ?

Every time you don’t lose an opportunity to show how poorly your pseudo calculator works .

your premise is nonsense

you are stating the great lopes who smashed the M wr down from 2"08'05 of jones to 2"07'12 was lacking M endurance ???

utter drivel

as for comparison to italians, lopes M best is still faster than anything any italian has ever run

er...

so you think he was not doping when he lost in nairobi to mutai ???

it is obvious your peabrain doesn't understand concept of a poor race

2y before at just 18y he ran 13'11 for 5k !

for him to run 27'48 at much more mature/stronger 20y of age from that foundation, especially when training for longer distances shows he ran an exceptionally poor 10k

very easily

the mutai who ran in 2"05-flat in new york was capable of 26'10/26'20 for 10k if he'd run a track 10k instead that day

you have no clue about how weak 10k times are & p!ss-weak the 10k wr actually is

kennster if he'd run his wr at even pace wouda run ~ 26'10

fool

i'm responding to drivel like africans lack endurance or specific guys like lopes

you have posted some real nonsense here

I tend to agree with funny_bike here. Saying that Mutai was able to run 26'10-20 is far by at least one minute and I don't know how you can claim such BS.

Regarding Lopes, I always had the same feeling that the Portuguese school lacked in specific M endurance.

No opinion on Abshero.

It would be nice to know what Canova has to say about this

Apparently I'm not the only one thinking ventolin is a bullshitter, but this fact has been unmasked in the past by people like Canova. Watching athletics on tv doesn't make you better than the others in predicting times. Anyway, lets go to substance. You probably never heard about a guy named Popper: he clearly stated that a theory, to be scientific, need to be falsifiable and it's enough one observation to falsify it while you CAN'T confirm it with thousands of observations.So what is your theory? It is the following one: running 2h04 is impossible with a base of 27'20 in the 10000mNow you provide anecdotical evidence of Carlos Lopes running 27'17 and 2h07'12 to draw your conclusions, but I could point out other evidences like Tergat, Tadese, Nicholas Kemboi (26'30 = 2h08'01 !!!) etc... So if we want to talk about what happens on average, yes we are fine. But we are talking about Baldini, who wasn't an average athlete, he was a guy who trained 10-15 years ago similarly to how people like Mosop, Mutai, Kipsang, Kirui etc... train now. What I showed you is that there are at least two instances (Mutai and Abshero) and Canova showed more (i.e. Kebede, Kipsang) which falsify your theory.

This is possibly the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard. 10.000 WR is actually pretty good, especially if you consider the progression done in middle distances compared to 5000-10000. I could claim that Rudisha running 1'40.9 was able to run 42" in 400 and 3'25.00 but it would be as ridiculous as your claims about Mutai.

You don't like Eugene? Take his races on the road: he has a SB of 28'14 in 2008, 28'11 in 2010 and 27'56 in 2012. Now explain me how a 28 flat translates into a 27 flat . What is more plausible is that Abshero is a guy able to run 27'30 in a 10000 and 2h04 in the marathon. The same holds true for 2004 Baldini.

Now please, keep watching athletics on TV but stop spamming the forum

clearly you don't have a clue about how fast the top africans, now almost exclusively on roads coud run for 10k even off M shape

canova trained kemboi who had no serious 10k pb before, within a few weeks to 26'30, which probably wouda been more like 26'20/26'23 seeing as last 600 was run in 1'23

i highly doubt kenya haven't produced a "kemboi" like talent in past 11y since when their national M record has gone from 2"04'55 to 2"03'23 & that doesn't include geofferey's 2"05-flat in new york which was possibly upto a minute faster better than the current kenyan record on a flat course with pacers or sammy's '08 gold effort

use your brain :

how fast woud a M guy have to be before it is virtually impossible not to have intrinsic 26'10/26'20 ability ???

or do you believe incredibly fast M times can be run off no significant basic intrinsic 10k speed ???

err...

did your "brain" comprehend that he took nearly 1'00 off the wr ???

did your "brain" comprehend that no italian has yet beaten lopes pb ???

Kemboi disappeared rather quickly after his 26:30 and he was

probably a dopper.

I try to answer several posters (slow FatMaster, Breath in breath out, ventolin, funny-bike and yyy), about several arguments, explaining some facts, and my personal opinions, without any will to raise some polemics.

At first (funny-bike), I was not in Tirrenia in 1984. At that time, I was the national responsible of multiple events, and normally our training center was in Schio. For that reason, I never was really involved in any decision regarding middle distances in the period before 1987 (when I became the responsible of Marathon for women).

But of course I know many things about those years. It’s true that CONI asked Conconi to prepare a full plan of “assistance” for top athletes of endurance, using the University of Ferrara. This plan started some time before 1980, and lasted till 1985, when to auto-transfusion became illegal.

This practice was purposed to all the Italian athletes of endurance : runners, walkers, skiers, bikers, swimmers. Many accepted, many refused. I very well know the list of top athletes refusing : Stefano Mei, Francesco Panetta, Gelindo Bordin, Alessandro Lambruschini were the best known among runners, Stefania Belmondo about skiers.

Some of them had systematic approach with this procedure (I can’t call it “doping”, because at that time it was legal) : Alberto Cova was the most known, but also Antibo the Selvaggio twins, Fontanella, Gerbi for Moscow OG, used it.

Somebody else tried one time, but after the worst results in their career never tried again : this is the case of the Olympic Champion Maurizio Damilano (he tried before ECh 1982, and had the worst competition of his life), of Massimo Magnani (dropped out in one marathon, and never wanted to try again), of Salvatore Bettiol.

So, it’s clear that, like for altitude training, there are “responders” and “not responders”. But we have some more info : for example, Antibo quitted this practice in 1985, and started immediately to run faster. The Antibo 1990 was an athlete of sure able to compete with great hopes of victory with the best Kenyan today.

The best Italian results in that period (apart Alberto Cova) came from athletes REFUSING the auto-transfusion : Bordin winning OG, Panetta WCh in steeple, Lambruschini medal in steeple, Damilano WCh again in 1987, and many other.

About ski-cross, Stefania Belmondo won more Olympic and World medals of Emanuela Di Centa, one completely clean, the other using auto-transfusion.

So, there is no evidence that that practice can “generally” help all the athletes. There is, instead, evidence that the practice can provoke some specific loss of the immunity ability, and athletes become weaker year after year. This happened with the swimmer Franceschi, big hope of medal in 1984, never again at the same level, with the steeple runner Mariano Scartezzini, and with some cyclist.

What I know of Luciano Gigliotti is what I learn about him with 15 years of common work, together in Tirrenia for several months every winter. He is a man mentally very clean, very direct, one of the best coaches I met in my life, with great psychological skill, able to have effective relations with his athletes. I learn a lot from him, more than under methodological point of view (I always was the most interested to explore this area), under the ability to manage athletes in order to produce the best possible results. A great person, under every point of view.

Now, after this explanation of one part of my athletic life, I go to the specific arguments.

About :

STEFANO BALDINI

For all his life, he followed the classic training of a “diesel” marathon runner (as Bordin, for example).

After I had my first experiences with Kenyan, and I spoke with Gigliotti about the results we could have using higher intensity with greater space of recovery between the hard sessions, in 2004 he started to change something in Stefano’s training.

In St. Moritz, for example, Stefano went for a long run of 2 hr 30’ at basic pace of 3’20” per km, including 4 times 2 km in 5’40” for immediately after running again at 3’20”.

He used this type of long and fast variations during long run for the first time in 2004, and I think one of the reasons because his specific endurance became so high is exactly the use of this system, which can help athletes to remove quickly lactate from their muscle fibers, increasing the permeability of membranes.

To look at his PB for having some idea of his real value is absolutely wrong. Baldini has seasonal strategies very different from Kenyan or Ethiopian. He was supported by Italian Federations, and always had the main focus for Championships, during Summer season.

He won twice European Champs (1998 – 2006), won twice bronze in WCh (2001-2003) and of course won OG (2004).

In order to be in top shape for these events, NEVER he tried to be in top shape for a marathon in Spring or in Autumn.

Everybody knows how difficult is to be at 100% of the shape for a Championship, after running a marathon in Spring at 100%.

Personally, I had this kind of experience in 2012 with Wilson Kipsang, Abel Kirui, Mary Keitany and Edna Kiplagat, very far from the shape they had during London marathon in their Olympic competitions (while, for example, Stephen Kiprotich, who ran the marathon almost two months before, without the same mental stess, was at his top for OG).

The first 5 best personal performances of Baldini were all in London, distributed from 1997 (when, not yet expert, didn’t win for a tactical mistake, after remaining only with the Olympic Champion Thugwane in the last 3 km, controlling him and allowing Pinto to have a surprising return, instead to go alone because was very much stronger and fresher than the Southafrican) and 2006 (when, very much weaker than in 2004, he bettered the NR).

So, it’s clear than, in 2004, he could run between 2 and 3 minutes faster than what he did in 1997, and repeated in 2006.

I don’t think really he could run very much faster of 27’30” if wanted to develop his career in 10000m. His values on track are very similar the values of Daniele Meucci, who is not yet a real “marathon runner”.

For 3000m, 7:43.14 (1996) vs 7:41.74 (2012). For 5000m, 13:23.43 (1996) vs 13:19.00 (2012). For 10000m, 27:43.98 (1996) vs 27:32.86 (2012).

How it’s possible to see, all the PB of both the athletes on track are in the same year. This means that, when you start to prepare marathon, automatically your specific speed decreases a little bit, and one of the problems we coaches have to face is to contain this reduction in very little percentage.

But thinking an athlete, running a fast marathon, can be at his top in 10000m in the same day, is something out of every technical possibility.

At the end the two answers are : Baldini always was a “diesel” as preparation, becoming a “turbo-diesel” only in the last part of his career, when already was more old.

Probably, he could do better if using the same approach some year before.

But, in any case, in the shape 2004, yes, he had all the possibilities to run at the pace of the current WR of Paul Tergat, and was, of sure, more marathon runner than the same Tergat (who, don’t forget, moved to marathon when already was very far from his best performances on track).

About

PAUL TERGAT

I already explained why, in my opinion, Paul (who is one of the greatest runners of the history) NEVER was a real marathon runner : he feared the distance, was not aggressive, and this is not part of his character, because when he ran shorter distances or cross country, many times showed these qualities.

And a very simple consideration : if you give great technical emphasis to the performance of Paul, how can you consider the performance of Sammy Korir, who paced 42.150 meters of the race running 2:04:56, and never was able running HM under 1 hour (his PB in 1:00:26, he ran 5 times under 1:01:00, in his life ran 14 HM and 26 Marathon, so he had a lot of occasion for finding the best conditions).

Not only, but the PB of Sammy Korir befor Berlin was 2:08:02, so he was able to improve of 3:06 pacing all the race, and also after Berlin never was able running under 2:06:38. This means that in Berlin 2003 athletes found ecceptional conditions, exactly like happened in Dubai during the last 3 years, and Gabriele Rosa was a genius for organizing a WR of big psychological impact, but technically the performance was nothing special.

We need to think that, after that period, we had other 39 performances under 2:05:00, so distributed :

5 by Wilson Kipsang,

3 by Haile Gebrselassie and Geoffrey Mutai,

2 by Emmanuel Mutai, Eliud Kipchoge, Patrick Makau and Dennis Kimetto,

1 by Moses Mosop, Ayele Abshero, Duncan Kibet, James Kwambai, Tsegaye Mekonnen, Tsegaye Kebede, Lelisa Desisa, Yemane Tsegay, Behranu Shiferaw, Tadese Tola, Dino Sefir, Getu Feleke, Feyisa Lilesa, Endeshaw Negesse, Bernard Koech, Markos Geneti, Stanley Biwott, Jonathan Maiyo, Gebremariam and Ryan Hall.

The reality is that, technically speaking (not mediatically speaking…), Paul Tergat was a superb athlete, but not one of the GREATEST marathon runners all time.

About

GEOFFREY MUTAI

Personally I think Geoffrey Mutai 2011 was the strongest marathon runner ever.

In that year he ran also his best 10 km on road (27:19 in Boston, on 26 June), and he really showed his potential in 10000m, because he ran the first 5 km in 13:58, and the second in 13:21, with last 3 km in 7:54.

However, Geoffrey had a real lack of speed. He never could run 1500m under 3:45, and could have a value in 3000m not better than 7:40.

This situation, of course, makes him out of the big games in 10000m, looking at real specialists as Kenenisa, Haile, the young Tergat, but also the best Nicholas Kemboi, Sileshi Sihine and somebody else.

The best quality of Geoffrey is a very high specific speed endurance. This means he can run for long time very close his speed of the shorter distance, and this is the product of very tough mental resistance and ability to sustain a high level of intense sufference for long time.

If we want to compare the ability of Geoffrey in 10000m with somebody else, we need to look at Moses Mosop, who in that period showed to be almost at the same level of Geoffrey, losing for only 4.0 in Boston, and 44 days later destroying the WR of 30 km on track with a performance that absolutely has a value close to the current WR in marathon.

Moses was a real specialist of track, before moving to marathon, and when he moved to marathon was not like Tergat or Gebrselassie one athlete at the end of his career.

He ran 10000m several time, and his PB is 26’49”, not really giving a true pic about his value, because when he ran in Hengelo his shape was no better than 90%.

We can argue Moses could run about 26’40” in an ideal competition when in shape (for example, WCh of Helsinki 2005, when won bronze medal with the last lap faster than Bekele and Sihine).

But Moses was faster than Geoffrey : he had 7’37 in 3000m and 12’54” in 5000, times out of the possibility of Geoffrey.

Geoffrey ran 3 top competitions of 10000m in his life, everytime in Nairobi :27’27”59 on 26 Jun 2010 (National Champs), 27’33”83 on 28 Jul 2010 (African Champs) and 27’38”9 in 2011 (WCh Trials), and NEVER won.

In the first two competitions, the winner was Wilson Kiprop, athlete training with me, who was able to beat him easily in the last lap, and in African Champs he was beated by Moses Kipsiro, too.

Next year, in front of him we find Peter Kirui (27’32”1) who defeated Wilson Kiprop (27’32”9), then Martin Mathathi in 27’38”6.

This means Geoffrey got almost 7.0 of gap in the last 400m, and this clearly shows his lack of speed.

About the table for comparing times in altitude and times at sea level, I warmly suggest Ventolin to forget the equivalences, when we speak about Kenyan or Ethiopian, living almost all the season at these altitudes.

Today we know that what we supposed, years ago, could be a right difference, is not something true, for this kind of athletes.

I remember the first Trials in Kenya I saw (1998), when Rosa was excited because Chelule was able to run under 28’. But those competitions were very tactical during the first 6-7 km, because all the athletes feared the effect of altitude (same thing happens still today with women).

In 2002, a crazy Benjamin Maiyo started the first 2 km in 5’22”, and at the end all the best (incidentally all my athletes : Paul Kosgei, John Korir and Wilberforce Talel) ran between 27’44” and 27’46”, but the most surprising result was the 27’48” of Tom Nyariki, no more in his best shape, but able to destroy his PB in altitude.

After that year, two times Moses Mosop won very easily under 28’, till 2010, when Geoffrey and Wilson started with 13’45” the first 5 km, and at the end there was the “unofficial” WR in altitude.

I think Wilson could run about 26’45” at his best, the same Geoffrey. We need to think they are HM and Marathon runners, and the lack of speed can be a big limit for their 10000m.

I agree with Ventolin that the performances of 10000m not represent, in the most part of cases, the real value of the athletes, because the lack of top competitions in this event, especially during the last 8 years.

This mean that the “classic” equivalence (the double of PB in 5000m plus 1:00) is, in the case of true specialists, not fair, because we can suppose a difference of no more than 40.0 (compared with the double of PB in 5000m) for athletes with specific attitude and specific training.

In my group, I have the 3 cases of Nicholas Kemboi (13:01 / 26:30 = 28.0 difference), Ahmed Hassan (12:56 / 26:38 = 46.0) and John Korir (13:09 / 26:52 = 34.0), but I have also Mark Bett (12:55 / 26:52 = 1:02), who never prepared, with me, 10000m in specific way.

Of course Geoffrey and Wilson Kiprop are

athletes “resistant” type. With them, we can estimate a value of 13:05 for 5000m (not better), that means about 26:40-26:45 with the parameters of Nicholas and John.

Finally, to suppose that Geoffrey can run fast as (or faster than) Kenenisa in the distance is something absurd.

Kenenisa had high speed (3:32 without really exploring his possibilities), is the WR holder of 5000m with a time better of 25.0-30.0 of the hypothetical PB of Geoffrey, and never had a lack of specific endurance, if the Bekele 2014 (far from the Bekele 2005) is able to run 2:05:03 without specific preparation in his first marathon.

Sometimes, too much enthusiasm can bring to too optimistic analysis.

About

AYELE ABSHERO

I can speak about Ayele knowing very well the facts, since I’m the one giving him training programs.

Ayele had a good speed (7’40”08 in 3000m in 2010), and of course his official PB for 10000m is very far from his real value.

Also his PB looking at 10 km on road is a fake PB : it’s enough to think that his PB for 15 km (42:02) is at the same pace of his PB for 10 km (27:56).

Ayele had to move from track to marathon not only because in marathon there is the money which is not possible to find on track, but also because he had a fastidious hamstring which continues still now, and the only solution was to reduce the speed.

But to look at his PB in 10 km for demonstrating that is possible to run 2:04 with about 28:00 is not a good example (because he’s not an athlete for 28:00…).

But if 28’ becomes 27’20” / 27’30”, we can accept the idea, and this is exactly what can happen, with a perfect preparation for marathon.

About

CARLOS LOPES

Yes, he had a big lack of specific endurance, when we speak about marathon.

He NEVER, in his life, ran longer than 30 km in training.

I met him in Istanbul HM in 1993 (he was there with some Portuguese competing) and we had opportunity to speak a lot about his preparation.

Carlos NEVER looked at some specific food for long distances, NEVER used running on road looking at his times, NEVER had a modulation in his training. Simply, he followed the programs of Moniz Pereira (who was one of the best coaches, often underrated) about the tests on track, and his personal feeling about all the training out of the track.

He was very aggressive, front runner not fearing anybody and anything, but of sure his training was by far not ideal for running a marathon.

Personally, I think Carlos had the psychological, and physiological, qualities for being athlete able running 2:04 in our days.