Kenya vs USA

skinny...i'm having a little fun w/this altho it's beginning to wane. i said that there appears to be SOMETHING

that makes africans superior to americans. i didn't say what that is 'cause i'm not sure. you need to read more closely and not into what others write.

What are you stupid? No one said that American professional sports take away distance talent. What I said is that in order for the sport to be popular beyond the college level is that spectators would need an identity in the same way that professional sport teams do in American. Secondly, I said that the reason why the sport is popular in Europe is because they don't have professional sports as they do in America that would diminish popularity into the other sports.

It really shows how stupid people are when they can't respond to a post in the way it was written and where the average educated person would have understood. The bottom line is that the current American system cannot develop the athletes that it does get. If the training system can't develop an average talented runner it sure as heck won't develop an above average talented person.

Take Ah ahdvice and get yourself a better education so you can comprehend writing better instead of destroying your brain cells everytime you overtrain yourself.

Simple fact. I have trained many african runners and also trained a number in Europe and a few pretty successful ones at that.

You take 100 Kids from Kenya and take 100 kids from the US and you will get 50 good Kenyan runners and maybe 5 good US runners.

The results speak for themselves, and the reason for this is routed in a number of arguments. Genetics / Diet / Altitude but above all attitude.

If the US wants to produce good athletes it just needs to go looking for them a bit harder than Kenya does.

Unfortunatley the playing field will never be even but you in the US have more ability than anyone else in the World to source and develop talent.

The Kenyans dont use any special formulas, they train hard!!and only a few really make it.

Insider - thank you. The current high school system will NEVER generate distance runners to compete with their peers at the Junior level. Only through luck once every 25 years will that ever happen again. And of all the ones that were competitive (Webb, Ritzenhein, Trotter, Odlaug), all found themselves quickly victim to poor training techniques.

High school aged kids are NEVER exposed to the top coaches during their career. They are NEVER exposed to training with the other top runners. And they are NEVER exposed to a system that emphasizes a high training to racing ratio. It is constantly race race race. And it is nearly year-round they are in this system between xc, indoor and outdoor track. By the time athletes get to the college level they are too far behind the rest of the world both physically and psychologically and are NEVER able to catch up.

You will NEVER NEVER NEVER see American distance running boom to the world levels until a year-round club system is in place that is the PRIMARY means of development and where top athletes can train together under top level coaches on a routine basis.

Ah say there are other people out there who know the truth. Ah say take Ah ahdvice and quit American sport. Join Kenyan team and you might make Olympic medal stand someday as a member wearing red, white, and blue colors.

Not trying to blow any holes in any theories, but maybe might want to not use John Smith as a genetic rebuttal, because a strong arguement could be made in John Smiths case for a genetic advantage, he comes from a family of great wrestlers. I don't think there is one bad or unoutstanding wrestler that came from that family and I am sure they were not all double jointed, or if they are, would this not be of a genetic nature that all of them are double jointed and directed to a sport where it could be used to its greatest advantage?

My point is this, DBELCO: John Smith definitely has a genetic advantage--but it wouldn't make a lick of difference if he didn't have top notch training in his sport.

I personally do not believe the blacks have a genetic advantage over whites, asians, etc.. But they DO, whether they have a genetic advantage or not, have a motivational advantage where running is their nations national sport. And they DO have an advantage in training and every other area related there too. And, yes, american sprinters definitely are on drugs--whereas long distant runners from africa are the ones on drugs. The drug testing in track and field throughout the world is a joke---that is why WR of FloJo still stands and people like Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, Regina Jacobs et al. will never get caught. Drugs and zionist politics plays very heavily into all of this. Furthermore, as Ah has pointed out hundreds of times, our method of training and our constant racing that we do in america very much adversely effects our ability to compete internationally. There was a thread to a link regarding El G's training. 80% of his training is to build and keep building a larger aerobic base. Less than 20% of his training has anything to do with intervals. I know my own training in high school was just the opposite of this. At least 80% of it was inteval training and less than 20% of it had anything to do with building my aerobic base. I know now, for a fact, if I had the potential to have been the greatest runner of all time--such training would have destroyed any hope for me ever competin on an international level.

If everyone is so inferior to blacks genetically--it would be impossible for the whites, asians etcetera to ever compete and beat them in international competition. So, the genetic argument does not wash at all. Hollywood has it grounded into american minds that White men can't jump. Were that so then wouldn't it be impossible for whites to ever win a high jump competion? So much of what you people THINK you know about sports and athletics is cartoonish reality formed from Hollywood. Try to focus on reality for a change.

Catman: Despite your ranting, you still have not answered the question in an intelligent manner. I will repeat it one more time for you:

Why do blacks (specifically with East African heritage) DOMINATE sprinting to an astonishing manner?? You wrote:

 ?I personally do not believe the blacks have a genetic advantage over whites, asians, etc.. But they DO, whether they have a genetic advantage or not, have a motivational advantage where running is their nations national sport. ? So sprinting is ONLY respected in the US??? NO! And white sprinters in THIS COUNTRY do not have any motivation to sprint??? YOU?VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! So if it is NOT motivation (and it isn?t), then why do blacks dominate sprinting so??

 Then you come up with this BEAUTY: ?yes, american sprinters definitely are on drugs--whereas long distant runners from africa are the ones on drugs. ? So there it is, everyone, BLACKS ARE THE BIGGEST CHEATERS AROUND, and ANYONE WHO WINS A GOLD MEDAL IS A CHEATER. THAT is what you are saying, whether you admit or not. What about whites??? Good, ol? honest whitey??? There have been TONS of Eastern Bloc white sprinters who have used tons of drugs, and they STILL CAN NOT COMPETE WITH BLACK SPRINTERS!!! And, you really think there has never been a white US sprinter who took Roids????? Even if there were only a few that did, why did they not reach the top?? Or even NEAR the top?? YOU ARE INSANE. Even if ALL sprinters, black and white around the world, were ALL on drugs, then how come the blacks come out on top??? Better drugs? Ha ha ha ha. This is TOO funny. And the same thing goes for distance runners: so the only ones that are taking EPO are the Africans??? That is SAD that you think so. And if white and black distance runners are ALL on EPO, again, why do the Africans always win??? BETTER genes my man. It is simple answer. Why this fact frighten you into making really illogically unsound arguments??

 And where did this idea(that East African sprinters have superior genes for their events, and West African distance runners superior genes for theirs?) come from?? From Hollywood? Sorry. Hollywood tends to promote the white cause if you haven?t noticed, bro. How about from looking at the facts, and then maybe some scientific investigations?? Gee there is novel concept. Did you read the links I posted?? Here they are again:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0657.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27096-2002Dec22.html

 ?If everyone is so inferior to blacks genetically--it would be impossible for the whites, asians etcetera to ever compete and beat them in international competition.? No one ever said that the occasion NEVER occurs when a western white runner is also is born with transcendent running genes. It is much rarer. Blacks DOMINATE the Sprint & Distance lists. Period. Whites have had some success in the middle distances. Maybe THOSE are the whites? events.

If we are going to ever beat them (and I NEVER said it was impossible), we MUST deal with reality. And that reality is that their dominance is not due to some secret diet they have, or better training, or less intervals(Jim Ryun & Seb Coe did OK with lots of intervals as youths) and more threshold running, and a better overall running environment (though those might all play a small role), but is because they have natural advantage in their genes. Only a huge advance in training science will defeat them as a nation.

To the buffoon calling himself ?AH?:

You are the idiot(at least this time), not I. And why is that:

 Because you ASS-U-ME-d(U Ass, me not?.that?s the broken English you like, right?) I was answering you, when I was not. Did I direct my post to you??? No. You with me so far??

 I was partially addressing Catman(Ah is not the only one on this board, though I am pretty sure he thinks the world revolves around him). Why? Because he asserted that there is much more incentive (monetary and otherwise) in the USA to try and become a great athlete in one of the big 4 pro sports. (and this argument has been made by many before him). The implications are 2-fold: 1) these sports might take away some of our running talent, because potential good runners would be more motivated to try their hand at those other sports. I have already shown that this is likely to only take away a FEW of out potential good distance runners. So that part does not explain the Africans dominance over us (and the rest of the world) 2) Implication two: Even if the ?big 4? pro sports do not actually ?steal? away potential runners, the simple fact that those sports get all the ?respect? in this country(and thus Running is not respected) would make potential runners less likely to consider running as a serious pursuit(even if they are not considering the other sports either because they do not have the right body types). There is some validity to this 2nd idea, but again, not that much. During the decades of running where the US could(at times) battle and even beat the world in distance running (50?s, 60?s, 70?s, early 80?s), running was NOT that much more respected than today. C?mon, talk to people of the era. Runners were for the most part looked at like they nuts/weird. Running, in general, has more respect in this country today than it did in those days (due to the jogging revolution). And the big 4 sports still got most of the respect. Sure, some of the big duel meets between the US & USSR got more attention that they would today, but that had a lot to do with the Cold War. So if incentive to become a great runner in this country has not changed much over the last half-century (and it hasn?t, in fact monetary incentives have risen), and if the big 4 sports are not the reason why this country used to be able to win gold medals in distance events in the 60?s & 70?s but can not now, WHAT IS THE REASON??? Oh yeah, Kenya, Ethiopia, and Morocco decided to take their NATURAL distance stars, train ?em hard, and let loose on the world. End of US chances for Gold medals.

 Last reason you are being an idiot: you?ve gotten out of character! What happened to wise-foreigner speaking broken English with much truth angle?? Me think Ah forget who he is, or realize he no funny.

Your Track League idea is not a bad one. It might help get the US back to the running performances we had 20 years ago and a little beyond those even. It will NOT help us beat the best West African has to offer. The only thing(legal thing) that will do that are huge advances in training. If I had those ideas, I?d be making a million dollars. I am not. Western Sports scientists need to come up with solutions that will allow us to compete with the Africans. New brilliant training ideas (NOT just more mileage, that?s an oldie but goodie, but we need more. Regurgitated training ideas are getting tired) might get us there: mind(MUCH smarter training) over matter(genetically superior athletes) is the way to go.

Again not trying to blow holes or dispute your theories, I have never stated that Black athletes are superior genetically to non-white athletes, but I do wonder why there is a so called white flight from major(traditional) athletics to hybrid sports such as x-games type sports? If American sprinters are doing drugs and all things being equal genetically, why are there not more non black Americans in the mix up at the top, or can non Black sprinters not get ahold of the good shtuff? Do Black athletes have the market covered on performance enhancing drugs, even though in most cases are not from an equal economic background ie. in many cases third world poverty, or in some cases (in America) ghettos(basically third world poor)? Your John Smith example and the subsequent explanation in my opinion disputes your arguement, just replace his name with lets say Paul Tergat or John Ngugi to your above explanation. John exploited his advantages or talents to their greatest advantage, he went to one of the best wrestling programs, Oklahoma State, to further his talent and it lead to a gold medal. I could have read your post out of context or wrong, long story short I agree with some of what you say and I disagree on some, and that is the beauty of this site, that we can agree to disagree. Nice chatting with you.

Skinny you got your continent backwards, it is the east Africans who seem to dominate the distances and the western Africans that seem to be dominant in sprints, just clarifying.

Marius has stated on his board that his times dropped

when he started training at just under the lactate

threshold, and avoided doing the intervals "killing hard".

He also stated that many young Kenyans build an aerobic

base at this lactate threshold for several years before

they go on to the world stage.

How many college age North Americans are running 100 plus

miles a week, with a percentage of their miles just under

the Lactate Threshold?

Thanks again fred. I'm up against the kill whitey crowd here.

I am not of the KILL WHITEY variety catman, in fact I would have confusion on just which side of me to kill, I have never figured out which half of me is White and which half is Native American?? Being of mixed blood, I am probably on an even lower rung on your social agenda, than other non white ethnicities, but thats alright, I have a tendency not to sweat the small shit, but again nice chatting with ya!

Skinny wrote:

Your Track League idea is not a bad one. It might help get the US back to the running performances we had 20 years ago and a little beyond those even. It will NOT help us beat the best West African has to offer. The only thing(legal thing) that will do that are huge advances in training. If I had those ideas, I?d be making a million dollars. I am not. Western Sports scientists need to come up with solutions that will allow us to compete with the Africans. New brilliant training ideas (NOT just more mileage, that?s an oldie but goodie, but we need more. Regurgitated training ideas are getting tired) might get us there: mind(MUCH smarter training) over matter(genetically superior athletes) is the way to go.

How are you going to get doctors and corporations involved in the sport when it is currently being monopolized at the teenage level by high schools? Heck, didn't some guy from Michigan have to resign because of vitamins or something he was handing out to kids? How are scientific and medical ideas supposed to evolve in a system that has locked out outside NECESSARY interests to compete at the world-class level? Distance running is the only sport in the USA that is totally controlled by the schools. It is impossible under this structure for the top runners to train together under the top coaches. The only sport that the high school system should be offering is OUTDOOR TRACK & FIELD and no more than 12 weeks. That is the only sport that is at the Olympic level and the only sport that offers scholarships at the college level. You will NEVER and I mean NEVER again see the development of world-class runners at the junior level in any form of consistency until some structure is in place that allows the elite youth to be grouped together under the elite coaches who can indeed employ scientific methods of training other than the generic over-racing, lack of scientific training the current youths endure now in their high school programs.

Ah say he is getting smarter and learning how to write much better. Ah is getting educated.

I am of mix race too---Indian and white. I am just not into the kill whitey mentality--just the opposite.

Catman, what tribe? I am not of the kill anyone variety, but in all honesty, when push comes to shove my loyalties or tendencies lean to my Native American side.

fred wrote:

How many college age North Americans are running 100 plus

miles a week, with a percentage of their miles just under

the Lactate Threshold?

I think a lot more did back in the 70s and 80s, and that may be one reason why the quality of the performances was better then than today.

The same is true at the high-school level. I graduated from H.S. in Washington state in the early 70s. That year, we had 2 guys under 9:00 for 2 miles (8:54 and 8:57), which is around 3 sec. longer than 3200. There were several more under 9:10. California had at least 10 guys under 9:00. Seems that nowadays we're very lucky to see 12 guys under 8:57 in the entire country. At our school, we averaged around 70 mpw, almost all of that at what was probably just below the LT. And I understood that the guys at high schools like Mead and Ferris in eastern Washington were doing much higher mileage. I think I recall reading that Rudy Chapa ran over 100 mpw consistently in H.S., much of it fairly hard, which may explain why he still has the 10,000 record of 28:32, which I'm betting will last longer than Ryun's record did. And I think I read that Jeff Nelson was generally running around 80 mpw and ran some very high mileage over the summer before his senior year, when he set the still-standing HS record of 8:36 for 2 miles (around 8:33 for 3200).

So there really has been a massive deterioration in performance, and I suspect that whimpier training is a big part of it. My old high school coach had great sucess with distance runners back in the 70s and 80s but retired in disgust a few years back, complaining that the kids just didn't want to work as hard anymore.

DBELCO, Cherokeee if you must know. And push comes to shove I identify much more with whites than any Indian tribe (nation). I don't cotton to anti-white rhetoric at all--unless it is anti-zionist. And that doesn't make me anti-semitic since, in fact, zionistic jews are european white and haven't a hint of semic blood in them. Palestinians, on the other hand, are semitic--so I am very pro-semitic--very anti-slavery--we in america suppor the jews' slave trade 110%--and I am against the racial torture that the zionist jews put others through in Israel--which includes segregation and no civil rights for black and oriental jews in Israel. We in american and europe support that kind of shit in the middle east by supporting zionism. Not all european white jews are zionist, but the greater percentage are.

fred, what became of Jeff Nelson? I'm not sure I can agree with your position on training in the 70s when compared today. I think it was probably better than now--but it had tons of room for improvement, too. The xc team I was on in late 70s had 15 guys who could run under 11 flat---6 at the most could, on a given day, get under 10 and none could get under 9:30. But our team was huge--no soccer just yet. I know our training was rotten to the core--but our reserve team, that I was on, could easily beat all the varsity in my county today. Most likely your coach retired cause soccer took away most of the talented runners. It definitely did that in my area. I do know that my coach interval trained more than the other coaches. But our xc team was so big none of the other schools in my area even had a chance.