Letsrun, do we have another 'Caster Semenya situation' in girls 800 at 2014 World Juniors?

VPNGuy wrote:

In the third heat of the 800m Raevyn Rogers was running in the middle/outside of lane 1 near the end of the first lap. Imali, another Kenyan, was coming up on the inside of lane 1 as Rogers, still leading, was moving slightly toward the middle/inside of the lane. Imali stomped on the back of Rogers foot or ankle. This cost Rogers the qualifying, although she bravely finished the race. Imali was the third qualifier in the heat.

No DQ or protest as far as I could tell, but it clearly cost Rogers her qualifying spot.

There is no way that cost her a spot (maybe .5 seconds) only. She didn't have it to qualify.

Makes Lopez Lomong look feminine.

I feel bad for that poor young "person".

It's obvious that there is a problem here. Why subject this person to international exposure like Caster had to live.

It's difficult however. Hey "person", we think that you may be half boy and half girl. We need to have you checked out...

It's obviously harsh, but not as harsh as it's going to get. With much more international press coverage of the situation...

did you watch the race? Did anyone see any junk bouncing around? If you didn't, and she doesn't have a penis, its a girl. Doesn't matter how else manly she looks.

Dude, if you don't think that he is manly then your "girlfriend" must look like LeBron James!

Stephen Colbert wrote:

Aside from the short hair she doesn't look manly. And even if she did she could just be a "manly"-looking (to you) woman.

wow, like... wrote:

did you watch the race? Did anyone see any junk bouncing around? If you didn't, and she doesn't have a penis, its a girl. Doesn't matter how else manly she looks.

Not that simple unfortunately. Caster did not have a penis, but she did have testicles (inside her body)...

Therefore, she was getting a big dose of testosterone, which gave her several male characteristics... Caster was not cheating. Caster had no idea. However, it was unfair...

This seems like a similar situation.

"Intersexuality" is no joke and there are 20 -30 thousand people born with this condition globally every year. There are varying degrees of genital malformation which can go either way or both directions! In past centuries, these people were often just put to death at birth. Later, Post-Enlightenment thinking was that an "acculturalization process" would sort things out, but if they (their parents or the church) got it wrong, often it resulted in self-harm and suicide. Now, post mid 20th century, it is believed that they should decide and select their gender based on how they feel they should be thought of as functioning adults in society. Or make no decision whatsoever and just leave it vague. You want to guarantee human rights in the social forum where we all exist but often those rights have been formed and understood through the mindset of firmly established gender boundaries - its how we evolved or were created - doesn't matter which you believe. What is important is that we love and respect those people who have those conditions but I can see the point of some athletes complaining about having to compete against someone with 3 times the testosterone that they themselves possess. It's a gridlock scenario with no easy answers!

Gender verification test needed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ-qn7Jjxh0&list=UUQk7fWv15ChjMJLCRVmtApw

Serious Question One wrote:

Gender verification test needed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ-qn7Jjxh0&list=UUQk7fWv15ChjMJLCRVmtApw

Youtube comments have been censored. The first comment yesterday (after the OP) said: "That is obviously a man."

That comment has been removed.

Women's sports is a farce if there isn't a strict definition of what constitutes a woman, even if that means barring a small percentage of people that identify themselves as women and are accepted as women in other circumstances. It's not the "Women's and Intergender 800m".

surely if she has 3 times the normal testosterone limit or some chemical advantage like that it'll show up in the drug testing at the competition. i hope.

I agree, but basically having athletics events segregated by gender or age is a farce for any major chamionship. The events should be about determining who is the fastest human in the world at any given distance and major competions should just be open events where men, women, veterans and juniors are all free to try and take part, with the winnings/medals going to the highest place finishers in the event. If people are so bothered about having junior, veteran, or women competitions at major championships, then these categories should be added into the Special Olympics' program as it is clearly believed that they carry some sort of handicap.

glasgow wrote:

surely if she has 3 times the normal testosterone limit or some chemical advantage like that it'll show up in the drug testing at the competition. i hope.

To my understanding there is no specific testosterone level that results in a woman's results being declared invalid. Natural testosterone is not doping.

Gender verification was dropped in 1999. The Caster Semenya incident inspired a new IAAF policy whereby an unusually high testosterone level may trigger an investigation and a "therepeutic proposal".

The IAAF certainly doesn't want more such controversy. World Juniors may not have a high enough profile to force them to take action.

not approved wrote:

glasgow wrote:

surely if she has 3 times the normal testosterone limit or some chemical advantage like that it'll show up in the drug testing at the competition. i hope.

To my understanding there is no specific testosterone level that results in a woman's results being declared invalid. Natural testosterone is not doping.

Gender verification was dropped in 1999. The Caster Semenya incident inspired a new IAAF policy whereby an unusually high testosterone level may trigger an investigation and a "therepeutic proposal".

The IAAF certainly doesn't want more such controversy. World Juniors may not have a high enough profile to force them to take action.

I think I have this right:

I believe the 'hinge' is whether an athlete is putting to use any of the testosterone. Some women have very high levels of natural testosterone...but it just courses through their blood and never gets put to use. doctors can tell this. if the T is not being put to use, then the athlete can compete without using drugs to lower the T.

caesarsghost wrote:

I'm stunned that no one has pointed out that the other Kenyan runner, Imali, looks even MORE like a dude. My son and I were watching in disbelief as he jogged around the track. Sure, he didn't do so well, but he's just as questionable as the one as the other.

I thought we were talking about Imali! While watching her race with Rogers posted earlier, she didn't look like a world class runner but rather a high school boy running 2:05. While elite youth women and high school boys may be running similar times you can tell a difference in their running economy and physique.

In 2011 the IAAF put into place a rule that states that any woman with more than 10 nmol/L of T is not allowed to compete unless it can be shown that her body does not respond to the T - this condition is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or AIS.

The catch is that absolute T can't be measured in urine samples - blood tests are required.

Just two weeks ago an Indian sprinter was dismissed from their CWG teams for high T.

The athlete is allowed back into competition if she gets her T below 10 nmol/L.

There are plenty of intersex people in the world. Some of them want to run track.

Sesamoiditis wrote:

caesarsghost wrote:

I'm stunned that no one has pointed out that the other Kenyan runner, Imali, looks even MORE like a dude. My son and I were watching in disbelief as he jogged around the track. Sure, he didn't do so well, but he's just as questionable as the one as the other.

I thought we were talking about Imali! While watching her race with Rogers posted earlier, she didn't look like a world class runner but rather a high school boy running 2:05. While elite youth women and high school boys may be running similar times you can tell a difference in their running economy and physique.

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Maximila+Imali/Zeyituna+Mohammed

Following up on the OP's comments - in this video, Imali appears to be wearing a man's singlet and no sports bra.

Manly Upper Body wrote:

Following up on the OP's comments - in this video, Imali appears to be wearing a man's singlet and no sports bra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tekKjPjGjQU&list=UUQk7fWv15ChjMJLCRVmtApw

Holy crap guys. Seriously. Listen to the video. Listen to that voice. Okay, she looks very muscular and slightly masculine. But I've never met a dude with a voice like that.

If there is something untoward going on, the IAAF policies will deal with it. 99% of this thread is just offensive, uninformed speculation.

She looks "like a high school boy running 2:05"? So you can evaluate testosterone based on running form? By that metric, you probably think Paula Radcliffe is Hulk Hogan.

tgirl wrote:

In 2011 the IAAF put into place a rule that states that any woman with more than 10 nmol/L of T is not allowed to compete unless it can be shown that her body does not respond to the T - this condition is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or AIS.

The catch is that absolute T can't be measured in urine samples - blood tests are required.

Just two weeks ago an Indian sprinter was dismissed from their CWG teams for high T.

The athlete is allowed back into competition if she gets her T below 10 nmol/L.

There are plenty of intersex people in the world. Some of them want to run track.

Can you point me to this rule?