What exactly is the gray area?

coach comments nicely wrote:

Lets do some comparisons here, sir.

I have provided an article with ACTUAL DOCTORS IN ENDOCRINOLOGY.

Hah, Canova used the exact same defense to prove EPO does not work on top Kenyans.

CCN,

Get it through your head, endocrinologists do not spend their time researching how to cheat.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7509290

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15155277

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/15690395_Thyroid_hormones_enhance_hypoxia-induced_erythropoietin_production_in_vitro

http://books.google.com/books?id=2_xd2cWH5IIC&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=thyroid+hormone+epo+hypoxia&source=bl&ots=-_vVPGvUWm&sig=SMSuZW1qMzjrsGDNtu_WQmgAbSI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KsiOU6aFIIH3oATazYKoBw&ved=0CHUQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=thyroid%20hormone%20epo%20hypoxia&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZUEQPw1Us5YC&lpg=PA7&ots=i4pa_qWEXb&dq=thyroid%20hormone%20epo%20hypoxia&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q=thyroid%20hormone%20epo%20hypoxia&f=false

http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/100/7/2623?variant=long

A few more

See references

http://www.dailypeloton.com/epo.asp

http://www.http://www.jbc.org/content/279/52/54620.fullpathologyoutlines.com/topic/bonemarrowerythroidmaturation.html

Increased muscle contraction

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8729693

Increased cardiac output

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0066-782X2006001600033&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

A few additional, well-documented effects of thyroid hormones include:

Cardiovascular system: Thyroid hormones increases heart rate, cardiac contractility and cardiac output. They also promote vasodilation, which leads to enhanced blood flow to many organs.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/thyroid/physio.html

https://www.inkling.com/read/berne-and-levy-physiology-updated-koeppen-stanton-6th/chapter-41/physiological-effects-of

Physiological Effects of Thyroid Hormone

Thyroid hormone acts on essentially all cells and tissues, and imbalances in thyroid function constitute some of the most common endocrine diseases. Thyroid hormone has many direct actions, but it also acts in more subtle ways to optimize the actions of several other hormones and neurotransmitters.

Cardiovascular Effects

Perhaps the most clinically important actions of thyroid hormone are those on cardiovascular physiology. T3 increases cardiac output, thereby ensuring sufficient delivery of O2 to tissues (Fig. 41-9). The resting heart rate and stroke volume are increased.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/280/5/E761

Triiodothyronine (T3) increases O2 and nutrient flux through mitochondria (Mito) of many tissues, but it is unclear whether ATP synthesis is increased, particularly in different types of skeletal muscle, because variable changes in uncoupling proteins (UCP) and enzymes have been reported. Thus Mito ATP production was measured in oxidative and glycolytic muscles, as well as in liver and heart, in rats administered T3 for 14 days. Relative to saline-treated controls, T3 rats had 80, 168, and 62% higher ATP production in soleus muscle, liver, and heart, respectively,

Thank you so much for posting all these references that SUPPORT WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. It is like you did a quick google search and grabbed any information that you saw regarding EPO, skeletal muscle and the thyroid. I am going to bed right now, but I will support my claim in the morning. I will leave you with this though, a quote DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE YOU QUOTED HERE:

mother clucker wrote:

Increased cardiac output

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0066-782X2006001600033&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

"Several studies demonstrate the effects of thyroid disorders on cardiovascular and muscle systems. Foremost among them are impaired cardiac function and decreased ability to perform daily activities, because of exercise intolerance. Further studies should be stimulated to evaluate disorders secondary to thyroid function variations and their implication, as well as therapeutic options for this highly prevalent disease."

See the 'impaired cardiac function and DECREASED ability to perform daily activities'. Hmm, wonder what that would do to any elite athlete running +100 miles a week.

I will post more in the morning.

Your wrong coach. Nop just found a way to battle overtraining by administration of thyroid meds. So the body can generate a lot of hormones. In a normal situation the athlete will essentially get overtrained and produce less hormones.

So this is a high performance booster and to me this should be the black area. While now still grey.

Wada is slow.

Save it for your NOP buddies, everyone knows that they are doping.quote]coach comments nicely wrote:Thank you so much for posting all these references that SUPPORT WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. It is like you did a quick google search and grabbed any information that you saw regarding EPO, skeletal muscle and the thyroid. I am going to bed right now, but I will support my claim in the morning. I will leave you with this though, a quote DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE YOU QUOTED HERE:

mother clucker wrote:

Increased cardiac output

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0066-782X2006001600033&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

"Several studies demonstrate the effects of thyroid disorders on cardiovascular and muscle systems. Foremost among them are impaired cardiac function and decreased ability to perform daily activities, because of exercise intolerance. Further studies should be stimulated to evaluate disorders secondary to thyroid function variations and their implication, as well as therapeutic options for this highly prevalent disease."

See the 'impaired cardiac function and DECREASED ability to perform daily activities'. Hmm, wonder what that would do to any elite athlete running +100 miles a week.

I will post more in the morning.[/quote]

mother clucker wrote:

Take Rupp for instance, in the past he has had a TUE for both thyroid hormone and asthma meds.

This is completely false. He has never had a TUE for thyroid hormone, because thyroid hormone has never required a TUE. Most asthma meds also don't require a TUE, although some do.

I have no idea what Galen or the rest of NOP is using or whether it is unethical. I do know that you totally undermine your own argument when you just make crap up.

I think you are confused.

You just pointed out that thyroid disorders have negative effects on athletes but drew the conclusion that a drug that adds hormones to offset said negative effects will have… negative effects?

Must be a NOPe coach.An athlete feels better, recovers faster under a slightly hyperthyroid condition. Tweak the levels a bit and you got an enhanncement.

Lets talk about something called HOMEOSTASIS (Let me help you out here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+is+homeostasis%3F+

). Basically, you can imagine homeostasis as a scale. Once you create an imbalance in your body for something your body has methods to create equilibrium again. For example, CALCIUM, if you are low on calcium, your body will release paraTHYROID hormone to activate osteoclasts to degrade bone matrix and release Ca2+ into the blood. To maintain equilibrium your body will usually release some kind of hormone to fix the imbalances. The king of the endocrine (glands that secrete hormones) system is the thyroid.

What a lot of you are misunderstanding is the function of the thyoid gland in general. Yes, it does 'increase HR and strength of contraction', yes it does 'promote vasodilation of peripheral vasculature'. I am not going to argue that it does not. This is what EVERYONES thyroid does. This is its NORMAL FUNCTION. If you take thyroid medication when you do not have hypothyroidism then you put yourself in a hyperthyroid state. What will your body do with the extra thyroid hormones? It won't just put it all into vasodilation and into increase your cardio output, it will effect every system in your body (except for the ones listed below).

You mentioned this article about 'increased muscle contraction'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8729693

. There is this quote here 'skeletal muscle have been shown to increase four- and 10-fold, respectively, in the transition from the hypothyroid to the hyperthyroid state'. Notice that the rats are going from a LOW thyroid condition to a HIGH thyroid condition. It mentions an INCREASE IN Ca2+. Want to know where that Ca2+ will come from once calcitriol has cleared all the calcium from your gut? It will take it from your bone matrix. A hyperthyroid condition can/has lead to OSTEOPOROSIS and a LOW bone density. This would be non-beneficial to an elite athlete and would increase his risk for stress fractures.

Most of the studies you posted were merely evidence that the thyroid gland plays a role in the kidney's production of EPO. This is not surprising at ALL. In fact, the only thing the thyroid does not effect is the brain, spleen, testes, uterus, and the thyroid gland itself. Everything out of that list is effected by the secretion of products by the thyroid gland. So in the first study the conclusion was 'Increased synthesis of HIF-1alpha may contribute to the adaptive response of increased oxygen demand under hyperthyroid conditions." What is interesting about this article is that the subjects were put in a HYPOXIA STATE. Do you know what that is? Look it up. Being in a low oxidation state your body's HOMEOSTASIS will kick in, creating more RBC (by EPO) to help give your body oxygen. Since the THYROID IS THE KING OF THE ENDOCRINE SYSTEM and EFFECTS EVERY SYSTEM in the body, of course you will find traces of it effecting the kidney in the production of EPO. Will taking thyroid medication increase your body's production of EPO when NOT UNDER A HYPOXIA CONDITION? Find me a study on that please, because it definitely will not unless you are in a hypoxia state.

It is all about homeostasis. If you read the first paragraph on erythropoietin this study you posted about it will tell you almost the same thing:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZUEQPw1Us5YC&lpg=PA7&ots=i4pa_qWEXb&dq=thyroid%20hormone%20epo%20hypoxia&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q=thyroid%20hormone%20epo%20hypoxia&f=false

. EPO production will occur in the case of hypoxia, it is your body's homeostasis playing a role on that, its messenger is the thyroid gland.

I guess the real question is whether or not high intensity exercise puts you in a hypothyroid condition. I would argue no, and the reason for that is once again, your body's natural homeostasis should keep that normal. In this blog post you listed:

http://www.dailypeloton.com/epo.asp

, he quotes a study using fasted rats in a hypoxia state. I don't think this study is going to be very valid for whether or not thyroid is performance enhancing. I don't think Rupp is in a hypoxia state, he isn't starving himself and he definitely isn't a rat.

Last thing on your whole 'body builders use it as a PED'. Lets look at what 'performance' is for a body builders:

They (body builders) must have an extremely low BMI. Being hyperthyroid (by taking medication to put you in that state) for a short time will burn your fat rather quickly, and it will make their muscle contract harder. This is perfect for the performance of a BODY BUILDER who trains to do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuSdvbZBeVU

The negatives of being in a hyperthyroid is, as discussed earlier, the damage it does to your bone matrix, ↑ metabolic rate, ↑ sweating (overheated), ↑ nervousness, rapid, irregular heartbeat, weight loss (in spite of adequate intake), EXOPTHALAMOS.

I don't think I have to show you what PERFORMANCE is for the NOP, but it is extremely different than a body builder. The negatives from taking thyroid medication when you are not hypothyroid are simply to great for an elite athlete to risk.

I am not a NOP coach. I do not know whether or not they are doping, but I know that being hyperthyroid is NOT GOING TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE.

Yeah and remember when "real doctors" in the 80s were claiming steroids don't make you stronger?

adsfasdfadsfsd wrote:

Yeah and remember when "real doctors" in the 80s were claiming steroids don't make you stronger?

No, I don't actually.

Straw man theory AGAIN, it's all you people can stand on.

I was watching Real Sports on HBO recently and there was someone criticizing a trainer for putting all of his horses on thyroid meds, even the ones that didn't need it. It seems to do something for racehorses, at least.

pindakaas wrote:

Your wrong coach. Nop just found a way to battle overtraining by administration of thyroid meds. So the body can generate a lot of hormones. In a normal situation the athlete will essentially get overtrained and produce less hormones.

So this is a high performance booster and to me this should be the black area. While now still grey.

Wada is slow.

I was under the impression that overtraining causes less of a response to hormones, not a decrease in production.

I'd critize him for that too! It is a stupid idea. Bring in a hyperthyroid condition is dangerous for your health.

It's the place in town with the artsy shops and restaurants. OOOOOOHHHH...the GRAY area...nevermind.