1) Ryun
2) Lindgren
3) Virgin
4) Webb
5) Ritzenhein
6) Fernandez
7) Verzbicas
8) Chapa
9) Rupp
10) Prefontaine
1) Ryun
2) Lindgren
3) Virgin
4) Webb
5) Ritzenhein
6) Fernandez
7) Verzbicas
8) Chapa
9) Rupp
10) Prefontaine
1) Jim Ryun
2) Alan Webb
3) Gerry Lindgren
4) Steve Prefontaine
5) Craig Virgin
6) Dathan Ritzenhein
7) Lukas Verzbicas
8) Galen Rupp
9) Eric Hulst
10) German Fernandez
Ritzenhein never broke a high school national record, which should be a criteria to make the list, unless one includes his cross country prowess.
Jeff Nelson's 8:36 record stood for almost 30 years... he should probably make the list for that alone.
Nelson also came close to Lindgren's indoor 2 mile record, as well as a solid performance at the junior world cross country meet.
That's a pretty damn good list and includes most all of the one's that I would include. Not sure about Granville only because he was an 800m specialist. Glad to see someone on here knows their history.
Definitely including Ritz's high school XC prowess. His track career, while stellar, was not the stuff of all-time great lists. I feel that he was a better high school performer than Galen Rupp, but given Rupp's 5000 HSR am a bit conflicted about leaving him off. 5000 isn't as much a standard HS distance though, so that takes away from it somewhat, and Rupp got beat at Footlocker.
As to Granville, it is always tough as to how to include an 800 meter specialist. If a pure 800 meter specialist can be included, he has to come in - class records all four years and an HSR that will likely turn 18 next summer. If not, then it makes it easier to include a few other guys who got left off. It's also tough in that they don't have XC available to add to their resume; also, I count losing Footlocker against Rupp, but can't count nonparticipation against Granville. There is a good case to leaving him off.
Jeff Nelson - I feel like he should probably be on there, but I find it hard to push some other guys off. I'm not familiar enough with his other accomplishments to know if they would aid his case at all. 4th at world junior XC certainly not a bad showing.
It seems pretty clear from about 1-7 (or six if we don't include Granville), but fuzzier after that. A few others I feel bad about leaving off include: Tim Danielson and (as previously mentioned) Marty Liquori (just for being the other two members of the sub-four club), Rich Kimball (for winning world junior XC, plus 4:02 and 8:46), Thom Hunt (second at WJXC and the longstanding HSR in the indoor mile), and Edward Cheserek (broke Lindgren's indoor two-miler HSR, the one that Verzbikas couldn't get, plus two Footlocker titles).
If this list was about guys who act like they think they're on this list, then that'd include Jacob Thomson.
did you jus see that holmes wrote:
1) Ryun
2) Lindgren
3) Virgin
4) Webb
5) Ritzenhein
6) Fernandez
7) Verzbicas
8) Chapa
9) Rupp
10) Prefontaine
No one in their right mind would rank Fernandez in front of Verzbicas.
1) They ran in the same era
2) Verzbicas was faster over 2 miles
3) Verzbicas was faster over 1 mile
4) Verzbicas has more National XC titles
5) Verzbicas was faster over 5k
6) Verzbicas has more National Track titles
Basically, Verzbicas was faster over every distance, won more XC titles, and won more Track titles.
Great thread Sartor!
I think for the most part your list is pretty inclusive. We could quibble all day about a few others as you've mentioned, but then you would have the same argument for the one's pushed off. Always hard, if not impossible, to narrow down to an "exact" Top 10.
A little bit of nostalgia for those that haven't seen it -
Seyta wrote:
did you jus see that holmes wrote:1) Ryun
2) Lindgren
3) Virgin
4) Webb
5) Ritzenhein
6) Fernandez
7) Verzbicas
8) Chapa
9) Rupp
10) Prefontaine
No one in their right mind would rank Fernandez in front of Verzbicas.
1) They ran in the same era
2) Verzbicas was faster over 2 miles
3) Verzbicas was faster over 1 mile
4) Verzbicas has more National XC titles
5) Verzbicas was faster over 5k
6) Verzbicas has more National Track titles
Basically, Verzbicas was faster over every distance, won more XC titles, and won more Track titles.
3) Verzbicas should break Virgin's 3 mile record at Detweiller then... oh wait.
Seyta wrote:
did you jus see that holmes wrote:1) Ryun
2) Lindgren
3) Virgin
4) Webb
5) Ritzenhein
6) Fernandez
7) Verzbicas
8) Chapa
9) Rupp
10) Prefontaine
No one in their right mind would rank Fernandez in front of Verzbicas.
1) They ran in the same era
2) Verzbicas was faster over 2 miles
3) Verzbicas was faster over 1 mile
4) Verzbicas has more National XC titles
5) Verzbicas was faster over 5k
6) Verzbicas has more National Track titles
Basically, Verzbicas was faster over every distance, won more XC titles, and won more Track titles.
1) This has nothing to do with what you are claiming.
2) Verzbicas had a personal rabbit and competition, Fernandez ran solo with zero competition
3) Verzbicas had a rabbit and competition, Fernandez ran solo with zero competition
4) Yup
5) How many track 5ks did Fernandez run?
6) National track titles mean little in high school. Verzbicas had more national track titles than Jim Ryun did too. Want to put him below Lukas?
Basically, you're just selectively looking at data points to support your claim.
So Webb's 3:53 mile is not good enough for a Top 10? He didn't just break, he smashed Ryun's HS record. For this race alone, you have to include Webb in the Top 10. He also ran 8:45 for 2 indoors and broke 4:00 a few other times.
hp wrote:
Ryun
Lindgren
Virgin
Pre
Chapa
Ritz
Hunt
Verzbickus
Hulst
Nelson
Sage
Liquori
Danielson
MChesney
Salazar
Middle Distance Analyst wrote:
So Webb's 3:53 mile is not good enough for a Top 10? He didn't just break, he smashed Ryun's HS record. For this race alone, you have to include Webb in the Top 10. He also ran 8:45 for 2 indoors and broke 4:00 a few other times.
Webb was also an excellent XC runner, 2d at Footlocker, and ran what I think is the most underrated XC race of all time, a 14:36 at Hagan Stone Park in North Carolina. Probably equal to 14:1x at McAlpine (the Footlocker South course). Also course record at McAlpine (though it was a weak record).
Can't neglect his part in the still-standing DMR HSR (4:00 1600).
Thom Hunt
Ern wrote:
Thom Hunt
Yea, Hunt's one of those that you could make an argument for or not for a Top 10. He was a great HS athlete no doubt, but I would put Virgin in a Top 10 before Hunt.
Gym Class Shuffle wrote:
Seyta wrote:No one in their right mind would rank Fernandez in front of Verzbicas.
1) They ran in the same era
2) Verzbicas was faster over 2 miles
3) Verzbicas was faster over 1 mile
4) Verzbicas has more National XC titles
5) Verzbicas was faster over 5k
6) Verzbicas has more National Track titles
Basically, Verzbicas was faster over every distance, won more XC titles, and won more Track titles.
3) Verzbicas should break Virgin's 3 mile record at Detweiller then... oh wait.
Disregard this post, I misread the post and thought he was naming how LV was better than the runners in the positions 1-6 not of how he was better than Fernandez... Also is there a delete post function on this site?
If you insist on including 800m, I'd say...
1. Gerry Lindgren - Only runner to have ran 3 HSRs that are still in the top-5 today (not including separate lists for 1500m/1600m/Mile, etc.).
2. Alan Webb - Mile record holder, also the only one to be on both 800m and Mile Top-5 list today. Very reasonably could have made the 2 mile Top-5 list if he ever ran it hard as well.
3. Jim Ryun - Was great in HS at the mile, and exploded onto the scene beyond the mile as a frosh in college, but didn't have the range of Webb in HS.
4. Lukas Verzbicas - 2 mile record holder, great in cross, numerous class records
5. Galen Rupp - 5k record holder, still on the 10k All-Time list (no one below, or not listed, can say they are still Top-5 for multiple events).
6. Michael Granville
7. George Kersh
8. German Fernandez
9. Jeff Nelson
10. Rudy Chapa
Honorable mention to Ritz (great in cross, just not the same level in track). Others you could include as well (Virgin, Danielson, Liquori, Pre, Richardson, Hulst) but they just don't match up with the top 10.
Sartor Resartus wrote:
1) Perhaps I should have specified, but I would have thought from my list it would be obvious I was referring to American high schoolers,
Yes, you should specify if that's what you mean. "Top Ten Greatest High School Runners (Boys)" means exactly what it says, and if you choose to put all American boys under that header that's your choice and not one that anybody else is bound to follow.
I was at Prospect HS Prep International Meet when Virgin set the HS 2M record. Virgin jumped to the lead immediately. That race was over after the first 80 yards. For Centrowitz to say he hung with Virgin for 880y, it defies reality. Centrowitz ceded that race to Virgin before the gun went off. It was about 92 degrees that afternoon. My dad and I were sunburned as hell afterwards.