Renato Canova slamming American marathoners?

Best is yet to come.

troof be told wrote:

"

We didn't have anyone in the top 10 in the marathon because NONE of our top marathoners except Ritz had valid qualifying times"

Fixed that for you.

What are you talking about? Who didn't have the marathon standard?

having lived and trained at sea-level and altitude for years at a time i feel very strongly that it's not possible to compete at the top in the marathon without living around 6500'-8000'.

for me the difference was almost as great as it is between world-class men and world-class women. now, maybe i'm at the extreme end of responders, but still. it's a totally different world. it was shocking to me the difference after about 6 months living at altitude. the big difference i noticed was the lactate clearance; whereas before it could take 3 - 5 minutes of tempo pace to clear out the lactate built up from a massive surge, after adapting to altitude that was cut down to about 30 - 45 seconds.

the problem is, to my knowledge, there is literally nowhere in the US that has year-round moderate weather at that altitude. we are just too far away from the equator.

it's not the age, or training habits, or motivation, or that your great great grandparents didn't climb the societal ladder by stealing goats or cattle on foot 100 miles from where they lived; it's just that the latitude of the continental US is not conducive to training at altitude year-round, and that is mandatory.

I think the reason we don't have the same marathon depth we do on the track is that we falsely see the marathon as a slow event to do on the back end of your career. Also, we don't know how to train for it. Ryan Hall is probably just as talented as the the East Africans, but keeps flip flopping his training methodology. Ritz has decent speed now from the track, at Pre Classic I think he ran under 1310, so 207 seems about right for him. I could see him getting down to 206high, but that's it. The marathon is a fast long race, Ryan doesn't have the speed to win marathons but he has good enough aerobic strength to show a glimmer of hope the disappoint and still be the top american when healthy. After those guys, we have Rupp, but Rupp won't be starting until at least after the 2016 olympics, so he'll be 30. Which means his speed will be on the downside, but he could be a contender for a few years. Guys peak in the marathon between late 20s and mid 30s depending on genetics, hopefully Rupp is the latter. After those guys, the next hope is probably in college or highschool right now and under the radar.

domestic pro wrote:

the problem is, to my knowledge, there is literally nowhere in the US that has year-round moderate weather at that altitude. we are just too far away from the equator.

Uh, Flagstaff?

And if that's not up to your standards, is it impossible for US runners to train outside the US? Torrence and others trained in Mexico last winter, at altitude.

That is not the what's holding our runners back. Khalid and Meb have both been near the top of the world training in the US. Latitude is not our problem.

ummmm no wrote:

Yes great depth on 25.5-26 mile courses. It's nice to be able to subtract a minute or 5 from the current marathoners to see what they would be able to run on most of the courses from 30 years ago.

Somebody has a problem with the truth.

crazy raisin wrote:

domestic pro wrote:

the problem is, to my knowledge, there is literally nowhere in the US that has year-round moderate weather at that altitude. we are just too far away from the equator.

Uh, Flagstaff?

And if that's not up to your standards, is it impossible for US runners to train outside the US? Torrence and others trained in Mexico last winter, at altitude.

That is not the what's holding our runners back. Khalid and Meb have both been near the top of the world training in the US. Latitude is not our problem.

Meb was at the top when he was in Mammoth, and that is a difficult place to be year-round; it takes a ton of discipline to train in cold weather for several months at a time. Certainly he had the discipline, but it's still taxing, and that's why he's sold his house and moved back to San Diego.

Flagstaff is not nearly as moderate as you might think.

Look at the Hi/Lo difference by month between Flagstaff and Eldoret, which are virtually at the same altitude.

Month - Flagstaff Hi/Lo - Eldoret Hi/Lo

Jan - 43/17 - 77/48

Feb - 45/19 - 79/48

Mar - 50/24 - 79/50

Apr - 58/29 - 77/48

May - 68/35 - 75/50

Jun - 78/42 - 73/48

Jul - 81/51 - 70/48

Aug - 78/50 - 72/48

Sep - 73/42 - 73/48

Oct - 62/32 - 75/50

Nov - 50/23 - 75/50

Dec - 43/17 - 75/48

That is 7 months of the year in Flagstaff with a daily low at or below freezing. The average snowfall in Flagstaff is about 95 inches a year, spread out sporadically between November and April. The temp difference for the Hi between the hottest and coldest month is 38 degrees (Jan&Dec vs. Jul) The temp difference for the Lo between the hottest and coldest month is 34 degrees. That is NOT moderate.

Eldoret has 0 days of the year with a daily low below freezing. The average snowfall is...0. Temp difference for the Hi of the coldest to hottest month is 9 degrees and the difference for the Lo of the coldest to hottest month is 2 degrees. THAT is moderate.

And no, it's not impossible for US runners to train outside of the US. But it sure as hell is not easy either. People have families and friends that are not easy to leave for half the year. And the amount of runners who can actually afford to do so is very small. Take those two previous sentences into account and you have virtually zero people from the US who are training year-round in moderate weather at 6500'-8000'.

The best answer is often the simplest.

But it sure as hell is not easy either.

Kenyans do it all the time. Stephen Kiprotich trains in Eldoret, but lives in Kapchorwa. Mo trains in Oregon and his family are in London.

If it is easy for them, why is it that much harder for Americans?

crazy raisin wrote:

May be, with proper training, somebody among the many athletes able running 10k in 27:30 / 27:45 can move to marathon. But for succeeding, must be still young, not injured, well motivated, and has to do different training from what the most part of American marathon runners normally use.

?

Chris Derrick?

Scott Bauhs?

Andrew Bumbalough?

domestic pro wrote:

Look at the Hi/Lo difference by month between Flagstaff and Eldoret, which are virtually at the same altitude.

That was lots of good info, and you do make a good point. However, is Eldoret really as ideal as you think? Rain season can make things really bad and near impossible to trian. Equipment is lacking. When you get injured, you can't do anything. I think you could point to a lot of disadvantages of the Kenyans' environment that the Americans don't have to deal with.

I read this as just another swipe at Webb from another jealous European. Yawn.

Webb!

I don't slam American marathon, I simply analyse a situation which is very clear.

Forget, at the moment, Hall, Ritzenhein, Keflezighi and Abdirahman. Look at the situation behind them.

Last year, US had 16 athletes in top 500 in the World :

2:07:47 Dathan Ritzenhein (30.12.82) (9) Chicago 7 Oct

(69 in the World)

2:09:08 Meb Keflezighi (5.05.75) (1) Houston 14 Jan

(126 in the World)

2:09:30 Ryan Hall (13.10.82) (2) Houston 14 Jan

(153)

2:09:47 Abdi Abdirahman (1.01.77) (3) Houston 14 Jan

(159)

2:11:06 Brett Gotcher (1.09.84) (4) Houston 14 Jan

(243)

2:11:24 Andrew Carlson (27.04.82) (5) Houston 14 Jan

(266)

2:11:41 Mohamed Trafeh (1.05.85) (7) Fukuoka 2 Dec

(288)

2:11:45 Ryan Vail (19.03.86) (8) Fukuoka 2 Dec

(293)

2:11:53 Fernando Cabada (22.04.82) (7) Houston 14 Jan

(307)

2:11:56 Nick Arciniaga (30.06.83) (8) Houston 14 Jan

(314)

2:12:03 Jeff Egglestone (1.10.84) (16) Chicago 7 Oct

(324)

2:12:23 Jim Carney (24.03.78) (9) Houston 14 Jan

(355)

2:12:29 Jim Grabow (20.09.84) (10) Houston 14 Jan

(367)

2:13:41 Ricky Flynn (20.07.87) (12) Houston 14 Jan

(468)

2:13:42 Pat Rizzo (25.07.83) (13) Houston 14 Jan

(471)

2:13:50 Josh Cox (9.08.75) (14) Houston 14 Jan

How everybody can see, 12 among the best 16 times 2012 in US were during OT in Houston, that seems to be the only marathon really interesting American runners.

If we go to analyse what the above athletes did this season, we can see that 10 of them didn't run any marathon, for different reason (may be also somebody retired from competitions), and these are :

Dathan Ritzenhein (he will compete again in Chicago), Meb Keflezighi, Ryan Hall, Abdi Abdirahman (all these athletes are booked for a major marathon at the end of the season), Brett Gotcher, Ryan Vail, Jim Carney, Jim Grabow, Ricky Flynn and Jos Cox.

If we look at OG 2016 (but also WCh 2015 in Beijing), probably we have to cancel Keflezighi (41 for Rio), Abdirahman (39), Carney (38) and Cox (41), without forgetting also Hall and Ritzenhein will be 34 in the next Olympics (and in any case they will be interested in running WCh 2015).

Only 6 athletes in this group ran a marathon in this spring, and with very poor results :

Carlson 2:17:16 (7) Houston 13 Jan

Trafeh DNF Otsu 3 Mar

Arciniaga 2:17:05 (7) Los Angeles 17 Mar

Eggelstone 2:14:57 (17) Paris 7 Apr

Cabada 2:18:23 (16) Boston 15 Apr

Rizzo 2:16:05 (12) London 21 Apr

So, at the moment, in US there are only 2 athletes under 2:14:00 in the season :

Jason Hartmann 2:12:12 (4) Boston 15 Apr

Michael Reneau 2:13:53 (9) Duluth 21 Jun

It's clear this situation doesn't represent the potentiality of a Country as US.

This means there is something wrong in the approach to the marathon, as methodology, but also as strategy and interest.

When there is some athlete with the talent for becoming one of the best in the World, nobody gives him time to grow in the right way, since Marathon is something to LEARN before having the experience for being competitive in top championships or in some major.

For example, in my opinion for Dathan Ritzenhein was a big technical mistake to run NY as first marathon. I discussed with Brad about this fact, and he told me agreed with my opinion, but there were too many pressures by the Company for putting him there (and he ran 2:14, without learning anything about how to manage a top competition).

Secondly, when some athlete is near a jump of quality, he doesn't try to build his experience competing in some top marathon abroad, but continue to stay in US running or small marathons (where it's possible to win some prize), or big marathons without any chance against Kenyans and Ethiopians, losing immediately the motivation.

Third thing, the athletes running marathon usually don't have good times in shorter distances, and can't fill the gap of talent in this direction.

Forth thing, Americans go to marathon when already too old, so they have no time for developing their career at their best.

For all those reasons, their training is more "amateurish" than professional, lacking the right volume and right intensity for running fast.

For example, I don't understand because an athlete like Ryan Vail, still young and able running under 27:45, doesn't start a project for becoming marathon runner full time, since in my opinion has the talent (I don't know mental, but of sure physical) for running under 2:07 looking at Rio 2016.

May be I don't know very well the American market. May be many athletes can earn more money running shorter events, because the American circuit of Road Races provides very good prizes for US runners.

Anyway, I speak about the fact. It's up to who knows to explain the reasons.

I agree. He wasn't slamming anyone. Whoever started this thread is over-sensitive or they are trying to start an argument or something.

Anyway I think J.E. ran very well.

He did not slam a damn thing. the guy or kid who started this thread is nothing but a little sh*t stirrer.... That's alright son I remember my fist beer too

Threads like this are an example of why this website is great. I would add that few US marathoners seem to train with other marathoners of an equal to or greater ability level. Very hard to maximize potential running in your own. Even a guy like Ritz has no one running marathon specific work with him.

Renato is on the money here.

Some previous posts had speculated about whether some of our top guys (Rupp for example) could contend at the top levels in the marathon. To me, it seems the core problem here is not the potential to compete at the top, but the lack of any kind of B level of marathoning in the USA.

What I'm getting at is, where are all the 2:10-2:11 marathoners we should be seeing? There are plenty of guys under 29:00 in the 10k now (as compared to the 90s). If you are running over 27:45 in the 10k, you are not going to make an Olympic team in the 10k. Most of these guys should be looking at the marathon but there seems to be no interest. Perhaps they don't believe they can compete. They ought to remember that Hall never broke 28:00 for 10k.

If we had a decent sized group of people running 2:10 consistently in the USA a few things would happen. The first thing is that if/when the top guys (Rupp types) stepped up to the marathon, they'd have to really commit to it or be at risk of being beaten by a B-level American. There wouldn't be anything like what Ritz is doing, bouncing between the marathon and the track. It would require a full commitment, which would improve the results of the top level guys...maybe they run 2:05-2:06 instead of 2:07-2:08. The second thing is with a critical mass of people at 2:10 (say 10-20 guys), the B level would improve as a result of competition. If you send 20 2:10 guys to the Olympic trials, some of them are going to make a breakthrough to 2:08 that would not occur in the current vacuum of competition. Third, you would probably also see an improvement in C level marathoners (lets say 2:20 - 2:25 guys), since there would be more talent out there, thus more opportunities for C level guys to be exposed to proper training ideas and picking up a fast training partner.

Simply developing the top level guys does not achieve the same results. If the top 3-4 guys start running 2:05, the B level guys may be demoralized, realizing there is no shot for the Olympic team at the marathon, and going back to the track. Getting the depth in the middle (B level) is important to increase competition.

About altitude, I see what "domestic pro" is saying about the difference between Eldoret and the USA, but I don't totally agree. First, Rupp is pretty much world class, and he trains primarily in the USA (Park City for altitude) and sometimes St Moritz. Having lived in the Northwest and Park City; I found running in the rainy NW much more difficult than running in PC/Salt Lake. With the proper clothes, you scarcely notice the cold after a while. Second, there is no reason a person couldn't move to Eldoret and train there. Yes, it is a sacrifice, but that's what it takes to be great at something.

Look at the quote/interview about Steven Kiprotich. He got crushed by Geb, then asked Geb what he needed to do to get good. Geb told him: train hard for 5 years. Imagine a 27:45 type guy packing it up for Eldoret and spending 5 years there, committed and focused. Actually, Nike or someone ought to sponsor a group of 5-10 guys to start an American training camp there. It would have to be a long term investment, not expecting immediate results. With 10 guys there for a 5 year commitment, I'd think we could bring home a medal or two, and kickstart American marathoning.

To be competitive at the very top, eventually there will have to be guys who never really do much track and just go straight to the marathon. Pay attention to what the Kenyans do. Their very best guys have little track experience, and their track guys who retire from track and move to the marathon have little success there. Don't pin your hopes on Galen taking over the marathon world.

yuiop wrote:

Considering our marathoning depth 30 years ago, something isn't right with U.S. marathoning.

Totally disagree. I think you could have made this argument about 15 years ago, but the depth of US distance AND marathoning is best in history. The issue isn't depth anymore, it's about athlete/coach/agent choice and event specialization. Folks today specialize on their event and then dive into the marathon when they are older and not capable of competing on the track anymore. For an idea of the depth of US marathon, look to the 10k and marathon particularly. The number of guys running 28:20 and under for 10k is absolutely insane. You probably couldn't even get a contract with a 3rd tier running group in the US unless you run close to 28:30 or so. I seriously believe the majority of those 28 low 10k guys could run 2:10-2:14 if they specifically focused on the marathon, but they don't. They tend to keep chipping away at the 10k/5k hoping to make that big breakthrough on the track. But even with this concept that exists today, the marathon depth is still better today than 30 years ago.

Canova is obviously correct, and I see no reason to get worked up about it. Perhaps Americans rarely focus on the marathon because it's unpleasant to train for it, unpleasant to race it, and hard to make a living at it.

It's also the least interesting race for the average fan to watch, with the possible exception of the 20 KM walk.

When was the last USA mens medal in the Olympic or World Champs marathon?