Basic Training Principles--New booklet on Lydiard training for high school runners

Lydiard described anaerobic training as a training which lowers the arterial blood pH (e.g. in the earlobe, and not in the quads).An athlete can lower his blood pH with only one well designed interval session, something short and fast and many, with long rests in between allowing full recovery.I suppose every coach with a lactate meter, testing blood from the earlobe, has verified the effect. I don't know if that qualifies as research, but this "x amount" can be as little as 3K-5K cumulative workbouts in less than one hour.Such a training usually requires something like 2 days (48 hours) to recover, where the blood pH is more or less back to normal.I don't recall he ever said that the lower blood pH causes burnout. Rather, a prolonged phase of "anaerobic" workouts (or too many races), without sufficient recovery, will eventually lead to a premature peak, and staleness.Again, I don't know about research, but I think many coaches and athletes also have experienced this directly.

runfastpleasenowsir wrote:

Northern Star,

Thanks for this great answer!

I have read that Lydiard said too much anaerobic running causes the pH of the blood to drop too low which in turn causes burnout.

Do you have an idea of how much anaerobic running it takes until your ph starts to drop too low?

Basically has any research shown that x amount of anaerobic running will lower the ph?

This question is for Northern Star and anyone else who may have an answer.

Ah. No. Nevermind.

systems wrote:

Did you read the intro to the booklet? He was lecturing on biochmistry with the usual misinformation about aerobic and anaerobic.

Oops. Seems I misunderstood this comment too.

PhatTongue wrote:

Cool! Let us know when the 'Modern Training' pamphlet comes out!

systems wrote:

John. You need to learn some biochmistry before you start leturing on the subject.

Lactate is the conversion of glycogen and glucose into a molecule that is further converted to fuel for aerobic respiration. Lactate production is NOT anaerobic respiration. That is a separate reaction connected to lactate production. In other words, both aerobic and anaeobic respiration are related to the production of lactate.

Technically, yes, you're right. My next booklet (Modern Training) goes more in-depth on the issue of why lactate isn't actually related to fatigue (in a causal sense) and so on. But that's way past the level of understanding a 9th-grade cross country runner needs, don't you think? I mean, I could have just said "lactic acid" and made even more people angry. I knew going in that physiologists would get grumpy with the section on energy production (as they did with Lydiard, who was a pretty faithful believer in strict aerobic/anaerobic respiration). In any case, the outcome is the same.

What's your position on the issue? Are you generally in agreement with the position of Robergs et al. with respect to the role of lactate production?

Also, to clarify for anyone else, my next as-of-yet-unpublished booklet is titled Modern Training and Physiology. I've also written about Renato Canova's training in an article titled "Something New in Training," which you can read here:

And I've collected all of the known writings of John Kellogg, which you can read about here:

Sorry for any confusion because of my uncreative titles.

Good stuff...my son's high school coach should read this...he abandoned "high end aerobic" workouts the last six weeks of the track season and instead opted for a 4x400/2x200 session every week in addition to the track meets...some of the runners ran their best times in March/April and then flat-lined by the state meet in May.

Could someone give me an example of a "high end aerobic" workout? Thanks in advance

Thank you for this. I still have my original autographed Lydiard pamphlet from the late 70s. My only suggestion would be to include images from Lydiard and his runners. I love this one personally.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RTDryipEsuc/TRTGVWzzLHI/AAAAAAAAABg/LtTaZUFAIyo/S220/icehowl.jpg

A "high end aerobic workout" is one that does not (heavily) tax the anaerobic system. Classic examples include:

*"AT runs" of 5-8mi or more at ~85% of current 5k pace (the aerobic threshold)

*"AnT/LT runs" of 4-5mi or 20-25min at ~92% of 5k pace (the anaerobic threshold)

*"progression runs" of 5-8mi or more which start very slow (8+min/mi) and gradually increases to 90-95% of 5k pace by the end

*"cruise interval" workouts, consisting of repeats at ~92% of repeats (anaerobic threshold again, same pace as an AnT run) from 3-10min long with 1-2 minutes of jogging recovery between. Can total in the neighborhood of 30min of fast running.

And to pre841, I would have loved to use more photos of Lydiard's athletes, but getting permission was incredibly tough. All those old pictures are copyrighted, and I was only able to get permission to use one (from the I.O.C. of all people) in my booklet. And as a side note, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that picture you posted is actually of Percy Cerutty's athletes--That sand dune is unmistakable!

pre841 wrote: I love this one personally.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RTDryipEsuc/TRTGVWzzLHI/AAAAAAAAABg/LtTaZUFAIyo/S220/icehowl.jpg

you want a lydiard booklet to have a cerutty picture in it, brave man :)

Thank you for this, brings back memories. Similar to pre841 I have some memorabilia from Lydiard. I still have my mimeographed training plan on the base phase (that he no doubt sent to hundreds of people). This is burned into my memory: M = 10, T = 15, W = 12, Th = 18, F = 10, S = 20, S = 15 for a total of 100. All in singles of course.

Thanks John, nice post.

Am I in agreement with Robergs? Well, yes and no. I don't agree that lactate production and acidosis should always correlate, because our training should help us to use a lot of lactate when needed without acidosis/breathlessness. But in lab studies where the subject is trying to hurt themselves with as much acidosis as possible, such as leg curls to fatigue on a quad machine, then of course high lactate will correlate to acidosis, so those studies are badly set up.

But we see the top runners doing very fast times without gasping for breath, and we have all had such runs in training if not in racing haven't we. So we need to look at what the causes of breathlessness are and how to avoid them. Interestingly Jack Daniels has posted here saying that the breathlessness workouts (blowing off a lot of CO2 combined with VO2max) are a good workout for the respiratory muscles, which is a good point, and so this could be useful occasionally, but should be avoided in general because it uses an extra 5% of energy, which is inneficient.

I have more to say another time thanks.

I am a nucklehead. I have always associated that image with Lydiard and his training group. Thank you for the clarification.

I'm sure everyone has been mostly paying attention to the Trials lately (myself included), but if you live in the Twin Cities area, you can pick up a free, high-quality print copy of Basic Training Principles at any of the following locally-owned running stores:

*TC Running Co

*Marathon Sports

*Startline Running Company

*Run 'n Fun St. Paul

*Run 'n Fun Burnsville

*Gear running store

*Gear west

There are only a limited number available, so you'll have to be quick about it. Even if you miss them, you can ask the store to have some more printed. And you'll always be able to download your own digital copy on the Google Docs link. Enjoy!

Northern Star wrote:

And to pre841, I would have loved to use more photos of Lydiard's athletes, but getting permission was incredibly tough. All those old pictures are copyrighted, and I was only able to get permission to use one (from the I.O.C. of all people) in my booklet.

Not quite right.

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(…) You (Americans) use a lot of anaerobic training without understanding anaerobic training and this is your problem, You think that by putting a kid on the track and running 20 400-meters fast that you are going to make a champion. (…)

(…) I have heard that the Moroccans are using my system but they have lengthened it, taking even long recovery between repetitions. They take up to eight minute recoveries between long repetitions. You people shorten it. You keep the pressure and you don’t get the arterial ph level you can get taking longer intervals of recovery and doing longer repetitions. That’s the way I do it. (…)

From New England Runner. March/April 2000 edition, page 30-31

The World According to Lydiard

As you may read Lydiard thinks that short intervals done with short recovery is more anaerobic that long intervals with long length recovery.

In all information about what he said or wrote he tries to pass the wrong idea that interval training it’s anaerobic mainly when it is not either.

Be the Lydiard weird aerobic definition, by ph level that is not the classic one, or whatever other reasonable aerobic definition:

1/ Ther´s no way that the fast 3k to 5k to 10k marathon intervals be anaerobic mainly.

2/ Ther´s no way that while shorten the interval turns the workout anaerobic, because shorten the interval implies reduce the pace

3/ Ther´s no way that longer repetitions is less anaerobic that shorter repetitions

4/Last but not least, ther´s no way that intervals at maximal paces (be short or long reps), by the use of longer the length of recovery doesn´t reduce the ph level neither lactate.

Form Lydiard i get lots of lessons. The interesting one lesson is that if he could make champions with wrong training and passing wrong training concepts then everyone else can do and mostly do agree with.

Finally the top of the stupid Lydiard sentence take from this new Northern Star “copy and past Lydiard stuff named 2Basic Training Principles--New booklet on Lydiard training for high school runners".

“Your aerobic capacity has no maximum—it can be developed and improved forever !”

I would love that both Rekrunner and Northern Star Lydiard experts or another one might justify that the aerobic capacity has no maximum and can be developed and improved forever. With all your chemistry, physiology, lactate or science expertise, i would love that they can justify this silly ignorant Lydiard sentence. I would love because sometimes I like to read things in funny style and people that play for stupid that are either jokes about serious matters.

Hello Antonio,

When I read Lydiard's words, I conclude that longer repetitions and longer recoveries make a better anaerobic workout:

- Moroccans and Lydiard: long repetitions + long recovery = good ("the way I do it")

- Americans: 20x400m repetitions + shortened recoveries = bad ("without understanding" ... "this is your problem")

That's the lesson he's giving to the Americans. Unless I'm mistaken about him or you, he's recommending longer recoveries, not shorter, for anaerobic training, just like you. I don't understand why you draw the opposite conclusions.

Regarding the statement about "aerobic capacity", I agree with you that it is not infinite. My understanding of "aerobic capacity" doesn't match they way Lydiard uses the term. I've seen elsewhere that VO2max "maxes out" in the short term, not more than 1-2 years. Marathon conditioning (general training) provides other benefits over the long term, but not "aerobic capacity" related improvements. I also tend to agree along the lines with something both you and Renato have said before: describing the science correctly is of secondary importance. Training should always be tempered by doing what works on a case by case basis.

Of course, I'm no physiologist, and I've never measured oxygen or lactate or pH.

If I wrote a similar training pamphlet, I wouldn't include a physiology section at all. Or I would reference physiologists.

So whatever Lydiard says or meant to say in the past, I agree with you about longer recoveries for anaerobic training, and the limitation of aerobic capacity improvements.

“Your aerobic capacity has no maximum—it can be developed and improved forever !”A common misconception yes. What Lydiard really meant was that our speed endurance has no (known) limits, and this applies to all distances.Northern Star is John Kellogg surely?

Antonio Cabral wrote:

1/ Ther´s no way that the fast 3k to 5k to 10k marathon intervals be anaerobic mainly.

2/ Ther´s no way that while shorten the interval turns the workout anaerobic, because shorten the interval implies reduce the pace

3/ Ther´s no way that longer repetitions is less anaerobic that shorter repetitions

4/Last but not least, ther´s no way that intervals at maximal paces (be short or long reps), by the use of longer the length of recovery doesn´t reduce the ph level neither lactate.

Yes I agree, However Antonio, I don't agree that lowering the blood pH is the true aim of real speed endurance training. Even with long recoveries/very fast pace, you want to be as economical as possible and avoid acidosis as much as possible, because acidosis is also a symptom of glycogen depletion, where muscle glycogen must be replaced by blood glucose which has an acidifying effect. To avoid this we must recruit different motor units in a sequence that helps maintain power to the end of the effort.

That is the real benefit of long hill efforts at high intensity. Kenenisa Bekele's coach reccomends 1000m long hills. I also think that these very hard speed endurance sessions need a very long warm up, to maximize efficiency. Think of it this way, the more fuel we have, the less efficiently we use it and vice versa. So a good balance between glycogen fueling and use must be found.

I am most certainly not John Kellogg, though his ideas have influenced my own quite a bit.

And can you improve your aerobic fitness "forever"? Of course not, you'll grow old and die eventually. But the fact remains that, after the first few yeas of training, pretty much all of your improvement will come from improvements in aerobic fitness, not your anaerobic capacity. And if you'd review that sentence in the context of the booklet, you'll see that it is contrasting aerobic development with the development of the anaerobic systems, which can really only be developed and improved for a month or two at a time during a training cycle. The point is, if you run continuously at an easy to moderate effort, day in and day out, you will improve for a long, long time. But you won't improve long-term if you run hard intervals day in and day out.

Hi northern star, I was just wondering is there any rule of thumb when determining whether a training session is aerobic or anerobic?