Training high school kids with no talent?

what you're saying is that you're not much of a coach and that you can't see much beyond your own nose. Your making a statement about yourself - not about them

Ah Ha wrote:

I think you need to rethink your premise. You state you are training kids with, "no talent."

I certainly would not want a couch who perceived the group as having no talent. They have talent but it may be minimal, modest, or just untapped.

I would not want someone to coach my child who deemed them completely talentless. How sad.

I would go further to say that someone who feels this way about their athletes might want to rethink coaching.

Maybe they need someone with hope as the minimum requirement to help them.

Some coaches coach to influence kids positively. Some coaches coach because they can make a stipend. Some coaches coach because it's their kids team. I coach because I want to show these kids that there are winners and losers in life and they don't have to be losers. It's something this country has forgot. We have a hugely misguided generation that thinks everything is fair and life is easy and when the real world comes around, it isn't. My job is show these kids that life takes hard work. Sorry that I feel some kids don't have distance running talent. It's a fact of life some people have talent in certain arenas and some don't. Now I'm trying to figure out how to best deal with kids who aren't necessarily suited for distance running but still work their butts off and make something out of them and teach them a lesson that when they get to college or the work force they will be able to achieve what they set out to do. I won't apologize for being pragmatic. I'm a realist. Get over yourself. I didn't get into coaching to hand out participation ribbons. They have PTA's for that crap.

Bill,

When they become adults it will not be about the times they ran or where they placed. It will be if you cared for them, paid attention to them, and believed in them. As coaches we can be the person who can save a kid from a life of defeat not by the times they run but how we treat them.

I have 75 kids out for distance, our varsity CC guys were State Champs, our girls were 3rd at the State meet. After we won I got tons of emails from former runners who never once mentioned a time or place but shared what they had learned from myself and the program.

I want to win just as much as any coach but I will not sacrafice my own ego at the cost of a kids life and the impact we make.

Now maybe I am misunderstanding your post.

Look up Joe Newton from York High School. 200 boys out every year for 50+ years for CC. They love this guy and most never see a varsity race, WHY?? cause he cares about everyone of them. Only a few go on with running but all go on with life and he has made a difference in all of them.

Just my two cents.

Monty

Great post. A few guys that posted recently seem to be over sensitive. I don't know why people think I don't care about the kids. To the contrary, I want them to succeed and learn the lessons of hard work during their years in the program. I also understand that kids have more fun running fast than "just being a part of the team" and some kids who have less talent than the others need their training adjusted so they can achieve those times. When I was in HS I would have hated a coach who left stones unturned in trying to get me to my best possible shape.

Also, I don't consider myself to be talented. I was not that fast in high school but me and my coaches found out what worked for me. It was different than what most the other kids were doing. I'm glad he didn't say "oh well maybe you are a late bloomer, just keep on hoping buddy!" I went the mileage route but you have to be royally motivated for that. I have parents that coddle their children to the extreme and they will pout if I make them go that route, not to mention I honestly believe the mileage route is ONLY for those who are highly motivated. You can't just tell a kid to run mileage if he doesn't care to do it. I have to figure out a way to get kids who haven't responded to moderate mileage to a better fitness while maintaining their psyche. Inevitably someone will come on here and say fast reps will burn a kid out. I look at it the opposite way. Running slow times will mentally burn a kid out because he'll find it boring. You get a kid fit and running good times he is way more likely to continue running after high school. And even if not, what percentage of kids go from hs to college running? Less than 5% with less than 1% seeing it all the way through?

Bill O'Really me thinks you should heed your own advice and get over yourself lol! Someone can't take criticism.

Kids need a positive encouraging coach. Not one that makes pronouncements such as "They have no talent."

Shame on you.

And what high school do you coach at?

Runners develop at their own rate and for some guys it takes four years to become varsity level.

Just keep at it, coaching, motivating and being patient.

Uhhh... Twitched, not sure if we are reading the same article. Per the link at: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/training-talent-10000-hours-and-genes.html"But it all starts with the genetic potential. In high performance sport, there is no such thing as alchemy - you do not make gold out of other metals. If you want to produce a champion, a gold medal, then you must start out with the right raw materials. Everyone will improve as a result of training. Some, the lucky few, will start out at a level that is higher than the rest, and will improve more rapidly through training. That this is linked to genes is, in my reading of the evidence, unquestionable."As to the original poster, your runners may feel as proud when they break 6 in the mile as someone else who breaks 4:20. I have found most kids (when coached to do so) set goals in accordance with what they can actually achieve. I'd suggest (and I know I need to work on myself) encouraging atheltes to set realistic and appropriate goals.

Twitched wrote:

A couple thoughts... wrote:

It sounds to me like these kids have low levels of genetic talent....

....Here is a great article (with links to original research) on the role genes play in running and, more importantly, improvement. Hope this helps.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/training-talent-10000-hours-and-genes.html

That article says that it is inconclusive whether performance is dependent on genes. That is the opposite of what you're saying, no?

A couple thoughts... wrote:

As to the original poster, your runners may feel as proud when they break 6 in the mile as someone else who breaks 4:20. I have found most kids (when coached to do so) set goals in accordance with what they can actually achieve. I'd suggest (and I know I need to work on myself) encouraging atheltes to set realistic and appropriate goals.

Yeah, I'm definitely doing that. I know some kids need to know they are working on something big (like a state title) to get really motivated and some are more motivated by setting PRs. Some really only care about being on the team that qualifies for state and a patient training program is a hard sell. I'm an adult, I understand patience. That doesn't mean a 14 or 15 year old really comprehends or cares to comprehend patience. I'm worried a few of the guys might just say forget it after track and then what good will a patient training program be? In their best interest, I want to find a way to give them hope that they should stick it out.

I like to tell success stories - guys who had PR's of 5:30 freshman year who went on to be one of the top in the State by senior year.

One of our runner's first 5K was 28 minutes and has gotten down to 4:39 for 1600. Name names so they know it really happened.

If they want to be good, they can be good, but success at distance running doesn't happen overnight for most.

Appreciate the PR's by all...

Ah Ha wrote:

I think you need to rethink your premise. You state you are training kids with, "no talent."

I certainly would not want a couch who perceived the group as having no talent. They have talent but it may be minimal, modest, or just untapped.

I would not want someone to coach my child who deemed them completely talentless. How sad.

I would go further to say that someone who feels this way about their athletes might want to rethink coaching.

Maybe they need someone with hope as the minimum requirement to help them.

Minimal talent vs. no talent? That's splitting hairs. Inevitably there are going to be some kids better than others and some kids worse than others. And some way worse than others. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. Enough with this high self-esteem everyone's a winner crap.

Bill O'Really wrote:

You can't just tell a kid to run mileage if he doesn't care to do it.

No, but you can tell him that "his services are no longer required". Surely you aren't obligated to keep kids on the team that aren't willing to run as much as you tell them to, within reasonable bounds?

It's enough that it's the only sport that everyone gets to participate in independent of their performance - surely it doesn't have to allow everyone to participate independent of their dedication.

Your a coach. You should focus on developing every kid as best you can. I don't know what "throw mileage at them" means. If you think doing more mileage will help them than increase volume to what they can still handle. You have no control over freshmen coming in and being better than them, that is not an issue, it happens everywhere. Your issue is making sure all the kids are properly motivated to keep doing what THEY should be doing to get better. If kids are quitting because they can't make "varsity", it is being over-emphasized on your team, or they are in it for the wrong reasons.

Your answer for every kid on the team is the same no matter what talent level or perceived talent level you have for them. "What can I do to help this individual athlete develop into a better runner in his time here and in his future?" Answer that question as best you can and you could come up with a bunch of different answers regardless of "talent" level.

i remember a freshman on my xc team who raced JV. not very good at the time. not good enough for varsity. probably the #10 runner on a squad of 20. also, he was younger than most of the kids in his class, probably birthday in may. no hair on his legs, etc. he grew from like 5'3'' to 6'2'' as a senior. trained consistently, but no high mileage ( this was late 80s early 90s). won xc state as a senior and the 1500m title in track. ran Div I xc and track. you never know.

I regularly have kids show up well north of 6 minutes miles in their opening races. There is one factor no one has brought up yet that I have seen. If these are real heavy kids, the only thing to do is get some weight off before you even think about times. If they look fairly fit, times will come quicker. Daily, consistent running, not even that much, is a good thing. Daily meaning 5 days a week or so, at that level seven isn't needed and extra recovery will help them. Strides and mechanics drills are the only other thing they need. Speed, tempos, etc are worthless to them at this stage. Also, don't let them run over ten minute miles in training. Also worthless. It's better for them to run 2 miles a day at 9s than 4 at 11s. Many of these kids will have a huge surge n power just from going through puberty. Just wait for it. I have never had a kid - even the ones who time trial 75 second 400s and 6:40 miles - who didn't scare 5 minutes by his senior year if committed to year round running on the above plan. Most get well under that.

Why not over 10 min pace in practice? Isn't it all relative and if their heart rate is at a good zone it's fine? Haven't seen this 10 min standard before.

I haven't had to use a 10 min/mile rule, but don't think it's all bad. If I had a kid struggling to run under 10 min/mile, I would use lots of segmented runs unless there was some physical disability that was at the core of the slower pace. Instead of sending a kid out on a 3-4 mile run at 12 min/mile pace, I would have the kid run 0.5-1.0 mi at a time at 8-9 minute pace until they had covered 2-4 miles and give them plenty of recovery in between. Within a week or two there would be dramatic improvement. The segments can be lengthened and the recoveries are decreased until they can complete 3-4 miles at ~8-9 min/mile. After 3-4 weeks of steady training, I have yet to have a high school guy that couldn't break 6:00 in the mile, which means running under 9:00 pace really isn't an issue.

Letting kids go out and shuffle 12 minute miles bears little resemblance to the athletic motion you want them to use in races. I also don't think the kids like running that slow either.

I coach middle school, but we use the same facilities as the high schoolers and I'm always on top of what they're doing. One day the summer before last a freshman came out. He was a skinny little runt and about as awkward and uncoordinated as they come. Since I didn't have any middle schoolers that day I decided to run with him on his first day of practice. He didn't make it 400m at 10:00 pace before having to talk. We repeated that several times and he never got much more than about 600m before needing to walk. He missed the next two days but came back out later in the week. I thought he had quit.

During XC that fall he never broke 25 minutes for 5k. He kept training though. During track he ran 6:40/14:30 for 1600m/3200m respectively and didn't break 3:00 for the 800m. He got last in a couple of meets. But he kept running.

This summer he kept building on what he did and worked his way to where he could do the easy days with the top guys/girls (16:30 boy/18:00 girl). Sure they run their easy days way too slow, but it was good for his confidence. As a 10th grader he nearly broke 21 minutes for 5k and never ran over 22 minutes. I'm quite excited to see how he does during outdoor and I bet he'll be real close to breaking 20:00 as an 11th grader.

I've had other kids improve a lot (from 9:00 for one mile to 14 minutes for 2 miles in one year), but he's the most drastic I've been around. He'll never break 16, but he works hard and I'm more excited to watch his improvement than anyone else.

So 13 minutes isn't bad for a freshman. Who cares if they never make varsity? Running is about doing one's best. Outside competition is secondary to competing against one's self. You need to stress that and not act like a runner is worthless if they aren't in the top 7.

As far as training I would focus on some shorter stuff. Not a ton, but slogging slow miles isn't good for anyone. The HS coach put a girl in nothing but the 3200m last year and she never broke 18 minutes. Well, on paper she did once, but that's because they figured no one could be so slow and said she was finished after 7 laps so she got credit for a 16 minute 3200m. Don't do that to anyone. 13 minutes ain't bad though.