Japanese Training Philosophy?

Consider This wrote:

Is there such a thing as a "Japanese training philosophy"? I would guess that there are various sorts of training used by different runners and coaches in Japan. I mean, what's an American training philosophy?

You are right. There are multiple American philosophies. But I am curious about any and all Japanese training philosophies... Just to clarify.

So what would a "typical week" look like for base, build up, peak, and taper?

What would be some key workout?

Sorry if those aren't the best adjectives.

Or do they even follow the old base, build up, peak, taper format?

This article(although from espn):

http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/track-and-xc/post/_/id/731/ekiden-a-closer-look-at-the-japanese-way

seems to state that they do "Infrequent racing, focus on speed" type training. This definition of "speed" may be different from the classic definition of speed(most on letsrun would probably think bolt or rudisha etc.), as the article then goes on to define the common high school training plan to be built around longer ekiden races and the 5k.

So does anyone know if that means they do a lot of classic speedwork(400s/200s) or have they a different meaning of speedwork?

Maybe I should have looked a bit before asking. Here's a blog on a training camp. Neato!

http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2009/10/training-for-hakone-ekiden-with-josai.html

I read that article. From what I got out of it "speed" seemed to imply going after big PRs (as opposed to a lot of American high-schoolers, who run a lot of races), rather than a specific type of training. I could have read it wrong, of course.

rocknrollrunner wrote:

As far as Japanese runners go, Kawauchi is pretty low mileage. From Running Times:

"I average 80 miles a week with two hard workouts, one speed session and one long run on the weekend," he says.

The key word here being "averaged". If you guys think he ran 80 mile weeks. I heard a video interview he gave shortly after World Championships where he spoke of his highest weeks being 220K during the buildup, which included a 35 mile long run. He was talking about it being a bit too much and that he does better when peak mileage is around 200K with a 50K being his longest session.

I think like the US, there are different philosophy. However, the foundation for those philosophy are largely Lydiard based. Most of the variables that are different are related to number of runs, pace on runs and quality of longer sessions. I read of a japanese 2:09 guy who never did anything but tempo and long threshold oriented work to go along with 240-260K weeks. His 10K PR was 29:21. He was competitive for close to 10 years on that style of training.

Lydiard works for 90% of the runners out there if done correctly and with patience. The philosophy behind this style of training is a philosophy for life. Most US runners train like they are not going to be running in the next year, almost panicked/desperate.

I think if a book on japanese training were to be translated/written for the US market, it would be largely disappointing because it won't be filled with training schedules, workouts and A, B or C programs.

The question I'm interested in is why is there not more elite senior success stories given their huge depth/base. Any ideas?

Possibly the answer could be tied up in what they love as a culture. They seem to love strength and moreso mental strength or strength of will, so the extremes are of more interest to them. You get the Kiai in martial arts which exemplifies the single explosive force of will and you get hyper-endurance as an example of sustained will, the more sustained the better. Marathon is the standout example of this and so becomes revered above other events in the culture.

It seems the shorter the distance the less success they have as a nation. It could be argued their love of the endurance has led their training to be emphasised in that direction and the power aspect of middle distance isn't attended to enough to produce significant results.

If the Izu Peninsula time of Lydiard led to certain changes that spread through the Japanese system, maybe not all of the picture was transferred?

KenyAn and Ethiopian runners much better now; no improvement since 2002 for Japan. That would be the better question: Why no improvement since 2002 or why have Kenyan Marathoners pulled away?

DrT wrote:

The question I'm interested in is why is there not more elite senior success stories given their huge depth/base. Any ideas?

redux wrote:

So what would a "typical week" look like for base, build up, peak, and taper?

What would be some key workout?

Sorry if those aren't the best adjectives.

This was the training of the So twins way back in 1985. during a stay in NZ. Takeshi So finished 4th in 84 OG.

I think one of them coached Moroshita (silver 92)who also coaches some top runners.

Aug 21. 60m jog and 120m xcrun

22. 10k and 40k 2.18.56.

23. 2x60m jogs plus 16k jog 73m.

24. 60m. jog and 15x1000m 2.52-3.02.

25. 60m jog and 120m run/30k

26. 80m jog/17k

27. 5k jog and 60k easy pace 4.06.59

28. 13k jog and 2x14k/70m jogs.

29. 13k jog and 19k/90 jog

30. 14k jog and 4x3k (2x8.51,2x8.47)

31. 14k jog and 80m/17k jog

Sep 1. 14k jog and 20k run 62.17

2. 14k jog and 60m/13k jog

3. 60m/12k jog and 100m/22k jog

4. 14k jog and 40k run 2.12.09

5. 12k jog and 14k jog

6. 13k jog and 80m/17k jog

7. 14k jog and 3x5k 14.27-14.30

8. 13k jog and 90m/19k jog

9. 13k jog and 70m/16k jog

10. 13k jog and 8k 24.50 (to tired to do 20k scheduled)

11. 14k/62m jog and 16k/68m jog

12. 13k/58m jog and 18k/80m jog plus 8x150m

13. 13k jog and 40krun 2.13.35.

14. 14k jog then depart NZ.

In march 1983 the So brothers ran about 126km f a loop around Mt Egmont in NZ, ave pace 4.00 per km.

Also with the So's in NZ in 85 were Hiromi Taniguchi, Taisuke Kodama and Hiroshi Noda.

One of the reasons they may not have improved their top level since 2002 is that they were already running very near their max.ability. Very few Kenyans were running marathons in the 80s and they were generaly not doing this sort of training. If you look at the training Canova gave Kirui and Mosop it is not unlike the sort of stuff the So's were doing back in the 80s

The reasons because Japanese runners didn't improve are essentially the following :

a) THE INFLUENCE OF THE COMPANIES. All the professional runners in Japan have contracts with the Companies, that are interested in special Club Championships including a lot of competitions in long distances, particularly Ekiden. For Japanese people, Ekiden are important as Tour de France in France, or Giro d'Italia in Italy. During a competition of Ekiden (distance full marathon with athletes running stages of different length, may be form 5 to 7 people per Team), there are plenty people on the road, and for those competitions the Company try to put under contract the best runners (also Kenyan and Ethiopian) giving a lot of money.

So, under economic point of view, the best Japaneses prefer to remain in the range 10k / HM, not having time and interest for running a full marathon with very good preparation (it's a little bit the same happening in US with athletes of Colleges : for them, the full activity is concentrated in the specific activity for University, and they can't become professional till when they don't leave their College).

b) TECHNICAL MISTAKES. Looking at the schedule of Soh (but Seko was also harder), there is a lot of mileage (normally more than 350 km per week or 200 miles, Seko had a higher mileage in one week with 480 km or 300 miles), there are long runs of 100 km called "mentalization" (about 2 times before every marathon, 70-80 km for women), but there is no adequate recovery and the Supercompensation can't work. This is the big difference among the training of today (where there is great importance for recovery) and the training of Japaneses, that are similar the training of Lydiard only because there is a high mileage, but not about the global structure of training, there is very much more heavy than in the classic Lydiard system.

Mr. Canova,

Would corporate teams not be a good thing for most athletes? With a focus on a major marathon and the "we" mentality that seems to underlie the Japanese running scene, they should be able to push each other up to at least having a consistent group of sub2:10 guys.

If his average was 80 mpw and his biggest 220 km he must have had many weeks below 80 miles.

Japan has a large modern economy. Probably much of this gap between youth and elite success can be explained by athletes not caring to continue training at a high level once they leave school and enter the corporate world. Not necessarily good or bad, just the way it is, same as in the USA.

Consider This wrote:

Is there such a thing as a "Japanese training philosophy"? I would guess that there are various sorts of training used by different runners and coaches in Japan. I mean, what's an American training philosophy?

Well I think a popular American idea is that running too much as a kid can lead to burn out or long term injury or growth stunts or whatever. That does not seem to be the case in Africa, and it might not be the case in Japan either. That could be a significant difference in training philosophy.

Why do Africans who use the Japanese system do so well if there are flaws in the system?

lhfdsahfdaa wrote:

Well I think a popular American idea is that running too much as a kid can lead to burn out or long term injury or growth stunts or whatever. That does not seem to be the case in Africa, and it might not be the case in Japan either. That could be a significant difference in training philosophy.

What makes you think thats a popular American idea? Where did you hear that?