After reading about this high school team that avg. 4:43 for a marathon relay, and seeing how deep the Japanese running scene is right now (not to mention some of the Kenyans that have come out of Japan): what is the training philosophy behind the running success they have had lately?
LONG distance. Distance that americans are afraid to do. Running 3x a day for a total of about 50km per day.
Lots of mileage at a decent clip (5:50-6:00).
Now show me what the Japanese got for that LONG distance.
In Deagu, US middle distance runners (counting Lagat) went 1-2-3-4-5 in the 1500, 5000, 1500, 800, and 800. Not a high mileage runner among them.
Japan got ONE medal for the whole track team--a hammer thrower.
The Japanese high mileage runners got the same thing the US high mileage runners got. NOTHING.
Key word - middle distance.
coach d wrote:
Now show me what the Japanese got for that LONG distance.
In Deagu, US middle distance runners (counting Lagat) went 1-2-3-4-5 in the 1500, 5000, 1500, 800, and 800. Not a high mileage runner among them.
Japan got ONE medal for the whole track team--a hammer thrower.
The Japanese high mileage runners got the same thing the US high mileage runners got. NOTHING.
coach d - you do realize middle distance running in Japan is not as popular as the marathon right? The culture embraces the marathon and successful marathoners become heroes in Japan.
Aghast wrote:
Key word - middle distance.
Key word - NOTHING. That's what LONG distance is worth, in Japan as well as USA.
Whether you like LONG distance or not, it seems in the modern running world that is where the money is for the world class distance runners(mid or long). Anyways, can anyone explain this? :
http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2008/11/deeper-and-deeper-goes-greatest-half.html
A half-marathon road race won in 62ish, but 500th place was 72ish!!
The Japanese have to be onto something...
marathoning has long been a success in japan. not just recently.
countries send their b team to worlds. why ? because at worlds appearance fees don't rate the top runners.
Fastest non-North African is Takaoka - 2:06:16. And the Japs do well considering their stumpy legs. Put the same training into a different type, like Wakihuri, and it gets pretty interesting doesn't it.[quote]All-time men's best marathon
a=downhill 1/1000 and point-to-point course
d=downhill 76m, 96m or 220m
1 2:03:02a Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 1 Boston 18.04.2011
2 2:03:06a Moses Mosop KEN 17.07.85 2 Boston 18.04.2011
3 2:03:38 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Berlin 25.09.2011
4 2:03:42 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 Frankfurt 30.10.2011
5 2:03:59 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 28.09.2008
6 2:04:26 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 30.09.2007
7 2:04:27 Duncan Kipkemboi Kibet KEN 25.04.78 1 Rotterdam 05.04.2009
7 2:04:27 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 2 Rotterdam 05.04.2009
9 2:04:40 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 1 London 17.04.2011
10 2:04:48 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Rotterdam 11.04.2010
11 2:04:53 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Dubai 18.01.2008
11 2:04:53a Gebre-egziabher Gebremariam ETH 10.09.84 3 Boston 18.04.2011
13 2:04:55 Paul Tergat KEN 17.06.69 1 Berlin 28.09.2003
13 2:04:55 Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 2 Rotterdam 11.04.2010
15 2:04:56 Sammy Korir KEN 12.12.71 2 Berlin 28.09.2003
16 2:04:57 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 Frankfurt 31.10.2010
17 2:04:58a Ryan Hall USA 14.10.82 4 Boston 18.04.2011
18 2:05:04 Abel Kirui KEN 04.06.82 3 Rotterdam 05.04.2009
19 2:05:06 Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 1 New York City 06.11.2011
20 2:05:08 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Berlin 26.09.2010
21 2:05:10 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 1 London 26.04.2009
21 2:05:10 Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 2 Berlin 26.09.2010
23 2:05:13 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 3 Rotterdam 11.04.2010
24 2:05:15 Martin Lel KEN 29.10.78 1 London 13.04.2008
25 2:05:16 Levi Matebo KEN 03.11.89 2 Frankfurt 30.10.2011
26 2:05:18 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 Fukuoka 06.12.2009
27 2:05:19 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 London 25.04.2010
28 2:05:20 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 2 London 26.04.2009
29 2:05:23 Lelisa Gemechu Feyisa ETH 01.02.90 4 Rotterdam 11.04.2010
30 2:05:24 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 2 London 13.04.2008
31 2:05:25 Bado Worku ETH 22.07.88 3 Berlin 26.09.2010
31 2:05:25 Albert Matebor KEN 20.12.80 3 Frankfurt 30.10.2011
33 2:05:27 Jaouad Gharib MAR 22.05.72 3 London 26.04.2009
33 2:05:27 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 1 Rotterdam 10.04.2011
35 2:05:29 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Dubai 16.01.2009
36 2:05:30 Abderrahim Goumri MAR 21.05.76 3 London 13.04.2008
37 2:05:33 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 2 Rotterdam 10.04.2011
38 2:05:36 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 2 Berlin 28.09.2008
39 2:05:37 Moses Mosop KEN 17.07.85 1 Chicago 09.10.2011
40 2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi USA 22.12.71 1 London 14.04.2002
41 2:05:39 Eliud Kiptanui KEN 06.06.89 1 Praha 09.05.2010
42 2:05:41 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 1 Chicago 11.10.2009
43 2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi MAR 22.12.71 1 Chicago 24.10.1999
44 2:05:44 Getu Feleke ETH 28.11.86 1 Amsterdam 17.10.2010
45 2:05:45 Martin Lel KEN 29.10.78 2 London 17.04.2011
45 2:05:45 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 3 London 17.04.2011
47 2:05:47 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 1 Paris 05.04.2009
48 2:05:48 Paul Tergat KEN 17.06.69 2 London 14.04.2002
48 2:05:48 Jafred Chirchir KEN 83 1 Eindhoven 09.10.2011
50 2:05:49 William Kipsang KEN 26.06.77 1 Rotterdam 13.04.2008
51 2:05:50 Evans Rutto KEN 08.04.78 1 Chicago 12.10.2003
52 2:05:52a Robert Kiprono Cheruiyot KEN 10.08.88 1 Boston 19.04.2010
53 2:05:53 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 1 Amsterdam 16.10.2011
54 2:05:56 Khalid Khannouchi USA 22.12.71 1 Chicago 13.10.2002
54 2:05:56 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 24.09.2006
56 2:06:04 Abderrahim Goumri MAR 21.05.76 2 Chicago 11.10.2009
57 2:06:05 Ronaldo da Costa BRA 07.06.70 1 Berlin 20.09.1998
57 2:06:05 Laban Korir KEN 2 Amsterdam 16.10.2011
59 2:06:07 Eric Ndiema KEN 28.12.92 3 Amsterdam 16.10.2011
59 2:06:07 Philip Sanga Kimutai KEN 10.09.83 4 Frankfurt 30.10.2011
61 2:06:08 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 20.09.2009
61 2:06:08 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 3 Chicago 11.10.2009
63 2:06:09 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Dubai 22.01.2010
64 2:06:10 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 Fukuoka 07.12.2008
65 2:06:12 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 2 Amsterdam 17.10.2010
66 2:06:13 Wilson Kiprotich Kebenei KEN 20.07.80 1 Otsu 07.03.2011
66 2:06:13a Abreham Cherkos ETH 23.09.89 5 Boston 18.04.2011
68 2:06:14 Felix Limo KEN 22.08.80 1 Rotterdam 04.04.2004
68 2:06:14 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 4 Rotterdam 05.04.2009
68 2:06:14 Gilbert Kirwa KEN 20.12.85 1 Frankfurt 25.10.2009
71 2:06:15 Titus Munji KEN 20.12.79 3 Berlin 28.09.2003
71 2:06:15 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 4 London 13.04.2008
71 2:06:15 Bazu Worku Hayla ETH 15.09.90 2 Paris 05.04.2009
71 2:06:15 Wesley Korir KEN 15.11.82 2 Chicago 09.10.2011
75 2:06:16 Moses Tanui KEN 20.08.65 2 Chicago 24.10.1999
75 2:06:16 Daniel Njenga KEN 07.05.76 2 Chicago 13.10.2002
75 2:06:16 Toshinari Takaoka JPN 24.09.70 3 Chicago 13.10.2002
coach d wrote:
Aghast wrote:Key word - middle distance.
Key word - NOTHING. That's what LONG distance is worth, in Japan as well as USA.
They medaled in the marathon.
So anybody have any idea if the Japanese way is Lydiard-esque, Canova-like, a-la-Daniels, or more than likely a mix?
Really im kurious if they are doing something radically different. Any input would be appreciated.
What about
57 2:06:05 Ronaldo da Costa BRA 07.06.70 1 Berlin 20.09.1998
?
Name sounds like he could have been Brazilian and not an African import.
After that it's Takaoka and Hall at 2:06:16 and 17 respectively.
Today's Huck Finn wrote:
What about
57 2:06:05 Ronaldo da Costa BRA 07.06.70 1 Berlin 20.09.1998
?
Name sounds like he could have been Brazilian and not an African import.
After that it's Takaoka and Hall at 2:06:16 and 17 respectively.
Yep missed that one, he is Brazilian. Still i don't feel it detracts from the situation.
Kuriosity Killed the Kat wrote:
So anybody have any idea if the Japanese way is Lydiard-esque, Canova-like, a-la-Daniels, or more than likely a mix?
Really im kurious if they are doing something radically different. Any input would be appreciated.
From what i understand they are more Ldyiard-esque than anything else. Nobby Hazishume is probably the best person to talk about this but here are some things he has said to me recently.
Nobby Hashizume I've been working on translating Keith Livingstone's "Healthy Intelligent Training" into Japanese. I'm still only about 50 pages into it but, in his earlier chapter, he really nailed it well. I even sent one of the chapters; "Great Secret" to 3 of the Japanese coaches. One is Koide who coached Naoko Takahashi. Another one is Watanabe who coached Reiko Tosa and Yoko Shibui, his team won the national ekiden championships 2 years ago. The last one is still an assistant coach at his corporate team but he was, when he was competing, the fastest non-African in the marathon (excluding wind-aided one-way downhill marathon), Takaoka with 2:06:16. I sent it to them because I knew they would love it. Particularly Koide because we've been talking about this very thing for the last 5 years! And though Takaoka is still learning, he was very interested in those "secrets". Nabe, of course, is a die-hard Lydiard advocate, himself traveling to New Zealand to stay at Arthur's house for 10 months back in 1995
and
One is Takaoka who, at his prime, was a 2:06 marathon runner. He didn't even know Lydiard. Upon reading my material, he came back to me and said; "OMG, that's what I've been doing all my career!!" It turned out, his coach's coach was one of the first original attendees at Lydiard's clinic in Izu peninsula back in 1963.
Kuriosity Killed the Kat wrote:
So anybody have any idea if the Japanese way is Lydiard-esque, Canova-like, a-la-Daniels, or more than likely a mix?
Really im kurious if they are doing something radically different. Any input would be appreciated.
From what i understand they are more Ldyiard-esque than anything else. Nobby Hazishume is probably the best person to talk about this but here are some things he has said to me recently.
Nobby Hashizume I've been working on translating Keith Livingstone's "Healthy Intelligent Training" into Japanese. I'm still only about 50 pages into it but, in his earlier chapter, he really nailed it well. I even sent one of the chapters; "Great Secret" to 3 of the Japanese coaches. One is Koide who coached Naoko Takahashi. Another one is Watanabe who coached Reiko Tosa and Yoko Shibui, his team won the national ekiden championships 2 years ago. The last one is still an assistant coach at his corporate team but he was, when he was competing, the fastest non-African in the marathon (excluding wind-aided one-way downhill marathon), Takaoka with 2:06:16. I sent it to them because I knew they would love it. Particularly Koide because we've been talking about this very thing for the last 5 years! And though Takaoka is still learning, he was very interested in those "secrets". Nabe, of course, is a die-hard Lydiard advocate, himself traveling to New Zealand to stay at Arthur's house for 10 months back in 1995
and
One is Takaoka who, at his prime, was a 2:06 marathon runner. He didn't even know Lydiard. Upon reading my material, he came back to me and said; "OMG, that's what I've been doing all my career!!" It turned out, his coach's coach was one of the first original attendees at Lydiard's clinic in Izu peninsula back in 1963.
Thanks Gypsy. That speaks volumes for the Lydiard way if the Japanese system is based off of his teachings.
This was posted in another thread but I find it very interesting:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jzv2ZSZAdyU/S8_qrmd1xFI/AAAAAAAABO4/LTahFmyIsBQ/s1600/univmen2.JPG
Surely someone out there knows or has a training log from one of the many Japanese guys on that list. It would be cool to compare and contrast a McDougal or Pre training log to that of Yuki Sato or Yuki Kawauchi.
Brett Larner where you at?
Is there such a thing as a "Japanese training philosophy"? I would guess that there are various sorts of training used by different runners and coaches in Japan. I mean, what's an American training philosophy?
