MarD wrote:
She never made any sudden unexpected improvements
How was her 2:15 Marathon no sudden and unexpected????
MarD wrote:
She never made any sudden unexpected improvements
How was her 2:15 Marathon no sudden and unexpected????
Letsrun Gunner wrote:
Also she hasn't done much of anything in many years. Seems like an awful sudden drop off after tests got better. HMMMMM
I also found it strange that she got slower as she got older. Oh wait, I find it strange that the old guy with the braces is running 12:53.
Nutella1 wrote:
MarD wrote:She never made any sudden unexpected improvements
How was her 2:15 Marathon no sudden and unexpected????
she ran 2:17 the year before...
Imperical wrote:
The burden is on you, not on the Wejo or anyone else.
Wrong. At the top level of athletics today, it is completely reasonable to ask serious questions about a woman who has run possibly the most impressive world record out there. We have more than enough evidence that doping is rampant across the top levels of all sports.
Lance, the big example, has not "tested positive," but you have to be a moron to not understand that he doped. People are not innocent until proven guilty. They are innocent until they are guilty.
I'm generally a skeptic when it comes to who is and isn't doping. I don't like mindless slander but we all have a doper-dar so to speak.
I full believe Paula is clean and here is why. She moved to train and live at high altitude before it was so much the rage. Of course it was used but these days it seems everyone is doing it. She ran (from her own mouth) up to 140 mile per week with lots of hard long runs and tempos. I've witnessed her first hand at the track in Font Romeu being paced round a track session by her husband on the bike screaming at her whilst she is absolutely burying herself!
This is in quite the contrast to when (your allowed) to watch some of the french/north Africans train who are generally incredibly unimpressive and then come out at the diamond league two weeks later and run world class time.
Paula has also always been willing to do anything and everything that is legal to get that extra 1%. There was an article in the times the other year about her using Emu gel and all sorts of stuff to try and get the best out of herself but always on the right side of the rules.
To the person suggesting she has declined since the testing has improved should probably verse yourself with the fact that she has given birth to not one but two children since 2007.
wronganswer wrote: We have more than enough evidence that doping is rampant across the top levels of all sports.
"We", hmmm, that is a lot of people.
You meant to say for "we": ...doping is rampant across the "ALL" levels of all sports.
coach d wrote:
If you suspect Bolt and Africans, but you don't suspect Paula, that stretch of logic could be described a racist.
Jeez, it only took 8 responses to turn it into a racist thread. I wonder how long it is before the "I saw a moose" and the "I consume 750 calories of Mountain Dew per day" threads are turned into accusations of racism.
coach d - are you Louis Farakan in disguise?
I actually think the racism thing is a bit more realistic on this thread where we will trash some but not others and race is the common thing that separates them.
what is this bash a brit week! First Mo now Paula, don't some of you have better things to do?
Paula is injured all the time. Dopers have incredible recovery time and tend to win major championships. See: Armstrong, Lance; Ramzi, Rashid; Guerruj, El; Woman, Chinese/Russian
30:00 runner who run's 2:15 for the marathon on a super fast course is rare but I know one man that did it. And I know he wasn't doping. Like all the top Western runners these days she was taking stuff and sleeping in altitude tents and hit a big one. She probably took it to the limit but knew not to cross the line. No steroids, EPO, or other detectable aids.
First of all as Paula told me herself when we first discussed doping, "The only person you know for certain is clean is yourself".
Everyone is under suspicion.
Having said that, I don't buy the "well she's so much faster than everyone else so she must be on drugs" logic. So what her drug is just that much better than everyone else's drug and no else knows about it? It's just as easy to believe she's better than everyone else and a freak of nature.
The first time I met Paula was in 2002 before she ran her first marathon. At the time she was regarded as the girl who tried really hard who always came up short. She'd lead a 10k for 24 laps and get outkicked on the last lap.
The British press wrote stories that it was not about winning but giving it your all. She epitomized that.
Anyway, I was seeing her physical therapist at the time in Ireland. She came to see him as well and we both were there at the same time. Rojo was there as well. A few things blew me away.
1) I think she is made for the marathon. We'd see her just flying down the trail every day. I couldn't believe how hard she was running. One day Robert asked her "How was the run?" She said something along the lines of, "It wasn't too bad. Just marathon pace. 5:15 a mile." 5:15 pace is 2:18. The World Record in the marathon at the time was 2:18:47. I think it was after that conversation Robert and I were determined to bet on her to win the London marathon. She was like a 3.5 or 5 to 1 underdog as Britain still regarded her as the girl who came up short (even though she won World XC right before this). I think I won $500 betting on her.
2) She's the hardest working/most focused professional athlete I've ever seen. That may sound crazy as you'd probably say, "all pro runners work hard." A couple of stories. Her husband Gary was a 3:34 1500m guy. I remember asking him, "do you train with her every day?" And he said, "No. Not every day. I couldn't. I think there are very few men in the world who could train with her day in and day out." Her top end isn't as fast as a man, but each day she could just hammer it.
Gary also talked about her focus. When I was running well, I found it very mentally draining. Gary talked about how Paula after a success or failure, immediately could turn to the next challenge. Each day she could get herself up to run 100%.
Her physical therapist Gerard Hartmann has treated hundreds of famous runners. His clinic was like an athletics museum. He had photos of everyone on the wall. I asked, "Where's Paula's photo?" He said, "I'm not putting it up until she wins a World Championship (on the track or the marathon)." At the time, she was the girl who always came up short. He would have none of it. He said, "She's that good and she has the highest pain tolerance of any athlete I've ever treated."
His treatment was crazy painful. Robert compared it one day to being a prisoner of war. Obviously not the best comparison but you get the point. Gerard had no problem saying Paula had the highest pain tolerance.
So considering Paula considered the world record (2:18) her marathon pace before she ever ran a marathon, I'm not surprised she broke it. 2:15:25 is ridiculous but I have a lot of reasons to believe she's clean. Sure from time to time I wonder, but that's natural and comes with the territory. I joke with guys I run with that they don't know if I doped.
It's why we allow threads like "Is Morgan Uceny using?" and "Mo Farah must be on something." Hopefully, it makes journalists keep asking questions (for example I'd like to ask Mo if he is on any thyroid medication which is legal) and the authorities to come up with better tests. Plus the whole nature of the sport is everyone is under suspicion so why not allow the conversations we're all having on runs. While we're on the subject of Mo Farah there are people suspicious of his improvement. I get asked about it a a lot and we get emails on it. Having said that I always wondered why more guys didn't do "Hi-Lo" training. I did the poor man versions of what Mo and Galen are doing and saw huge improvement. It baffled me more people didn't apply the science that is out there to their training. Alberto's group does that so the improvement is feasible in my mind. It doesn't mean people shouldn't ask questions.
Back to Paula. Once she became the champions she is the story in the British press changed. Suddenly it was, "if you keep working really hard you come out on top."
Thanks for the response Wejo. This was the type of information I was hoping you or someone who knows Paula could divulge. Very interesting post.
I agree with your assessment but are you saying that dopers don't work hard, aren't incredibly focused and don't run impressive workouts? All those things may be true of Paula but that is not evidence as to whether she doped. A skeptic may argue that the fact she comfortably ran a tempo run sub-world record pace is suspicious.
wejo wrote:
First of all as Paula told me herself when we first discussed doping, "The only person you know for certain is clean is yourself".
Everyone is under suspicion.
Having said that, I don't buy the "well she's so much faster than everyone else so she must be on drugs" logic. So what her drug is just that much better than everyone else's drug and no else knows about it? It's just as easy to believe she's better than everyone else and a freak of nature.
The first time I met Paula was in 2002 before she ran her first marathon. At the time she was regarded as the girl who tried really hard who always came up short. She'd lead a 10k for 24 laps and get outkicked on the last lap.
The British press wrote stories that it was not about winning but giving it your all. She epitomized that.
Anyway, I was seeing her physical therapist at the time in Ireland. She came to see him as well and we both were there at the same time. Rojo was there as well. A few things blew me away.
1) I think she is made for the marathon. We'd see her just flying down the trail every day. I couldn't believe how hard she was running. One day Robert asked her "How was the run?" She said something along the lines of, "It wasn't too bad. Just marathon pace. 5:15 a mile." 5:15 pace is 2:18. The World Record in the marathon at the time was 2:18:47. I think it was after that conversation Robert and I were determined to bet on her to win the London marathon. She was like a 3.5 or 5 to 1 underdog as Britain still regarded her as the girl who came up short (even though she won World XC right before this). I think I won $500 betting on her.
2) She's the hardest working/most focused professional athlete I've ever seen. That may sound crazy as you'd probably say, "all pro runners work hard." A couple of stories. Her husband Gary was a 3:34 1500m guy. I remember asking him, "do you train with her every day?" And he said, "No. Not every day. I couldn't. I think there are very few men in the world who could train with her day in and day out." Her top end isn't as fast as a man, but each day she could just hammer it.
Gary also talked about her focus. When I was running well, I found it very mentally draining. Gary talked about how Paula after a success or failure, immediately could turn to the next challenge. Each day she could get herself up to run 100%.
Her physical therapist Gerard Hartmann has treated hundreds of famous runners. His clinic was like an athletics museum. He had photos of everyone on the wall. I asked, "Where's Paula's photo?" He said, "I'm not putting it up until she wins a World Championship (on the track or the marathon)." At the time, she was the girl who always came up short. He would have none of it. He said, "She's that good and she has the highest pain tolerance of any athlete I've ever treated."
His treatment was crazy painful. Robert compared it one day to being a prisoner of war. Obviously not the best comparison but you get the point. Gerard had no problem saying Paula had the highest pain tolerance.
So considering Paula considered the world record (2:18) her marathon pace before she ever ran a marathon, I'm not surprised she broke it. 2:15:25 is ridiculous but I have a lot of reasons to believe she's clean. Sure from time to time I wonder, but that's natural and comes with the territory. I joke with guys I run with that they don't know if I doped.
It's why we allow threads like "Is Morgan Uceny using?" and "Mo Farah must be on something." Hopefully, it makes journalists keep asking questions (for example I'd like to ask Mo if he is on any thyroid medication which is legal) and the authorities to come up with better tests. Plus the whole nature of the sport is everyone is under suspicion so why not allow the conversations we're all having on runs. While we're on the subject of Mo Farah there are people suspicious of his improvement. I get asked about it a a lot and we get emails on it. Having said that I always wondered why more guys didn't do "Hi-Lo" training. I did the poor man versions of what Mo and Galen are doing and saw huge improvement. It baffled me more people didn't apply the science that is out there to their training. Alberto's group does that so the improvement is feasible in my mind. It doesn't mean people shouldn't ask questions.
Back to Paula. Once she became the champions she is the story in the British press changed. Suddenly it was, "if you keep working really hard you come out on top."
Berlin is taking too long. I wonder if she'll run poorly. Anything slower than Mikitenko 2:24:24 time is poor.
some drugs improve recovery and therefore allow dopers to work harder. Many of us have to back off frequently because we're on the brink of injury, so we can't do nearly as many hard runs as we'd like to do. I don't know whether Radcliffe doped, but I know that the defense "s/he works harder than anyone else" don't disprove drug use at all, because drug use may make that possible.
2:15 is an assisted time (male pacers). 2:17:4x is more comparative. Would Defar have scared 14:00 with male pacers?
Exactly! Now I am NOT saying that I think Paula is/was doping, but in general the whole point of doping in endurance sports is not that it makes someone miraculously run or bike or whatever faster, it is that the drugs allow you to recover faster and better and therefore train harder and in greater volume. So saying that someone is able to train super hard all the time does not clear them of suspicion, it actually makes me suspicious because most athletes can't be up and 100% everyday. Now, certain people also might just be complete genetic freaks, so therefore I am not accusing Paula. Just saying.
jjjjjjjjj wrote:
some drugs improve recovery and therefore allow dopers to work harder. Many of us have to back off frequently because we're on the brink of injury, so we can't do nearly as many hard runs as we'd like to do. I don't know whether Radcliffe doped, but I know that the defense "s/he works harder than anyone else" don't disprove drug use at all, because drug use may make that possible.
1.white
2.English speaker
3.distance runner
4.=my rational, intelligent, non-biased opinion is that she is clean.
Paula Radcliffe is a special athlete for another reason and that's she isn't affraid of racing and pushing her limits. She often did it on her own in women's races and during her 2.15 race she was competing against her male pacers. She ran like 30 flat in pooring rain in Munich (2002) and 14.30 in an European cup-meet.
In men's races you see a Paula-style racing spirit way often. Remember the races were men pushed their limits. Ryan Hall, Geoffrey Mutai, Moses Mosop did it
in Boston, Tergat and his pacemaker in Berlin ran together to the finish, keeping the pace high. As happened to Kannouchi in London a few times, trailed by a stellar field, let alone a lot of Rotterdam-races
Defar and Dibaba (and probably others) could have broken 14 if they raced each other till the finish and really are committed to break that mark. But way often they prefer winning and beating each other than breaking a mark. I've seen these Ethiopian girls on pretty good pace in Brussels once (2006 I believe it was), but when the (female) pacemaker stepped off, they slowed to an almost pedestrian pace to save their kick. The rest of the field almost catched up to them.
In poor conditions in Beijing, Dibaba and Aybelegesse ran sub 30, imagine what those women could do if they raced (together) like Rupp, Solinksy, etc. in Stanford like conditions. Meselech Melkamu proved in Utrecht by running 29:5x on her own in good conditions that the 29:30 barrier can be broken. She was on WR pace for quite a long time.
Back to the topic: whether Paula Radcliffe doped or not, her competitive spirit gave her a headstart to attain incredible performances. And that mustn't be counted out.