Why do Daniels "I" paces kick my rear so badly?

kenyan kid ran 12:53 wrote:

this thread embodies a lot of what is wrong with american distance running. Do you think the kenyans are worried about why they can't run their R or I or Z or KJHG pace correctly? or why they arent running times according to their premeasured VDOT?

Keep it simple.

I tend to agree with your point for the most part, but I do disagree with your assertion that "kenyans" don't care about their pace. Maybe some don't, but the world-beaters have coaches and prescribed paces that they're expected to hit.

5 days a week I run without a watch, having only a general idea of how far I've gone. I don't care about the pace. Two days a week I do a workout with measured distances and paces prescribed by Daniel's book.

Awesome quote, by the way. Who wrote it?

Yeah, let's throw decades of research out the window, and just 'keep it simple'. In what other sport does that work? Extreme fitness isn't magic. It's science, whether we understand that science or not.

Hey, want to be the best weightlifter? Don't have any set schedules - just 'keep it simple'.

Want to play in the NBA? Don't run complicated drills and such - just 'keep it simple'.

They were 'keeping it simple' when the WR for the 10k was 30 minutes. They were 'keeping it simple' when no one had broken four minutes for the mile.

Science has always advanced our sport, and will continue to do so.

It's nice to preach some metaphysical ideal, but the reality is that hard work and knowledge will outperform your metaphysical nirvana every time.

Let's see how Ryan Hall does by 'keeping it simple'. Do you really think his more unstructured schedule is going to deliver him a breakthrough?

Zvika wrote:

kenyan kid ran 12:53 wrote:

this thread embodies a lot of what is wrong with american distance running. Do you think the kenyans are worried about why they can't run their R or I or Z or KJHG pace correctly? or why they arent running times according to their premeasured VDOT?

Keep it simple.

I tend to agree with your point for the most part, but I do disagree with your assertion that "kenyans" don't care about their pace. Maybe some don't, but the world-beaters have coaches and prescribed paces that they're expected to hit.

5 days a week I run without a watch, having only a general idea of how far I've gone. I don't care about the pace. Two days a week I do a workout with measured distances and paces prescribed by Daniel's book.

Awesome quote, by the way. Who wrote it?

Our good friend Wejo!

it is at the bottom of the page.

I also agree with P. Vece. I have used Daniels training for many years, and I think the overall structure is excellent.

That said, I only rarely have tried doing 5 x 1200m at 3K pace with equal rests, and when I have I found it extremely stressful -- much moreso than just running a competitive 3K -- enough to knock out my immune system and impair future training.

Pete Magill's training plan for the 5K, in contrast, touches on 3K pace only in a couple sessions of repeat 200's with a 200 jog. He does recommend weekly 5K-pace sessions with 3-minute rests, working up from 3-minute intervals to 5-minute intervals as fitness increases.

So I either limit my 3K pace intervals to 800m or do the longer ones at 5K pace. Either way I end up with a workout that feels like training, not a race, and I recover better.

FACT! Kenenisa Bekele runs whatever pace he damned well feels like everyday.

FACT! Chris Solinsky went from 13:30 runner to sub-13:30 only after he stopped running specific paces each day, and just ran paces until faster paces felt less fast.

FACT! The good college teams have almost no structure except running a lot of miles. There are no goal paces. You just run what you feel like and run a lot. That's all there is to their success and those who disagree are just trying to sell books.

FACT! A person running 80 mpw will ALWAYS get better if he runs 95 mpw. And then get better in turn off 110 mpw. And then get better in turn off 125 mpw. And then get better in turn off 140 mpw. And then get better in turn off 155 mpw. And then get better in turn off 170 mpw. And then get better in turn off 185 mpw. And then get better in turn off 200 mpw.

FACT! Kenyan kid ran 12:53 has run 12:52 off his own training plan.

~FACT!

I've done repeats on the track at I pace for about 4 min (it was 1200, but time is the more appropriate paradigm for such workouts). With 3 minutes jog rest, it is just fine. I stand by my thought that the OP is aerobically underdeveloped.

With all of that said, there is definitely something to running by feel. I love doing what I call "watch workouts". You run a goal pace effort, completely by feel (i.e. no markers on the course), and you get so much jog rest in between (depending on the purpose of the workout and the the intended pace).

This has to be the most stupid post on LR in a long time.

Stick to your Daniels paces. However, I would approach the I-pace sessions a little more progressively. Do these workouts on the same day each week, and progress like this (or something like it.)

Week 1: 14x60secs/40 secs Ipace/Epace

2: 12x80/40

3: 8x2:00mins/75 secs

4: 6x3mins/2mins

5: 12x80/40

6: 16x60/40

7: 8x2:00mins/60 secs

8: 6x3:00mins/1.5mins

9: 5x5mins/2.5mins

I've been running for 36 years (obviously I'm a masters runner) - almost all of it competitively. I also find Daniels' I pace to be quite difficult.

Therefore, if I MUST time my workouts, I use my 5k "pace" as my guide, not the quicker 3k "I" pace.

About half the time, I simply do the prescribed time (i.e. 3:10 = 5k pace for 800) and run it off the track (I prefer grass). The other times when I think I need to get a reality check and I go to the track, I really try to concentrate on remembering if what I'm running feels like "5k effort" - i.e. can I hold this pace/effort for a whole 3.1 mile race? Most of the time, I am pleasantly surprised that my perceived effort very closely matches my actual 5k performances. It's nice to check at the end of an interval and see "ah ha! that's right where it should be!"

Also, it makes the workout a little less intimidating to keep in mind that it's my race pace for 5k since I SHOULD be able to run that pace for a 1k or 800 or whatever.

The other thing I find is that by nature, VO2max pace or 5k pace, or worse, R pace is comparably tougher for me to feel comfortable running. I run a fair amount of mileage (aiming for high 60s/low 70s) and really have no issues with long runs, but (unlike you) struggle at the fast end. What I'm gradually coming to realize is that 1) I really DO need to keep those faster sessions in my training, despite hating them but 2) perhaps I need to take a bit more recovery between sessions (not doing them once a week, but maybe 2 times in a 3 week span) until it isn't quite as stressful.

Finally, in my hurry to "get the damn thing over with", I often skip stretching and other warmup (other than a 2-3 mi jog) and this is a BAD idea. Besides the injury potential, it makes it a lot harder to launch into the right pace. I should do some dynamic stretching as I have heard this helps a lot, but I do now do a 800 or so at tempo effort prior to starting to do intervals. I find that it actually makes switching to faster running much easier. (I also tend to get faster with each interval as my body continues to loosen up and I relax).