I'm in Phase III for the 5K/10K program. I have no problems whatsoever with the slower T pace as well as the quicker R pace. I have to intentionally keep from running too fast. However, the "I" interval pace, which lies in the middle, kicks my rear every time I do workouts at this pace. A typical workout is 5X1200 with 3:30 rest. I do the 1200s at my suggested pace of 3:50
Is this unusual?
You don't run enough mileage. Volume is king.
There is not a significant lactate contribution when running at I pace (aka 5k race pace). The majority of the energy comes from the aerobic system. Really I pace is the hardest aerobic pace.
So, T pace - makes sense why this feels easier. It's a slower aerobic pace. R pace - once you're going this fast you have your lactate system able to contribute.
I pace is just plain old hard aerobic running.
As a side note, any time you find something in training that you hate or feels hard, that's probably a sign that you need more of it.
Because, frankly, they're often too fast. Daniels bases those paces on 100% VO2Max (~3k pace, although it's more a function of time than race distance). IMHO, you'd be wise to do more interval sessions at current 5k pace (or a mix of current and goal 5k pace). It's still a high % of your VO2Max, but much more manageable.
Too many sessions like that in a short period of time and you're cooked.
malgore wrote:
There is not a significant lactate contribution when running at I pace (aka 5k race pace). The majority of the energy comes from the aerobic system. Really I pace is the hardest aerobic pace.
Lactate metabolism IS the aerobic contribution in a 5k. 100%
well they shouldnt feel superfast. r pace isnt even that fast. f pace hurts though.
Because Daniels' training is bullshit.
How many runners has he made significant improvements with? Pre-established runners that he takes under his wing and stamps his name on do not count.
He is bullshit and his book is bullshit.
How young are you? Younger runners are almost across the board underdeveloped aerobically. They just don't have enough miles on the legs and don't have a sufficient long run. And if you're underdeveloped aerobically, then VO2max workouts will be the toughest things you do.
I think P. Vece hit it right on the money. Daniels is great if you want to get fast very quickly. He even says in his book that his plan is just a very basic plan and should be tailored to the individual. But how?? Interval pace should be (according to Daniels) 95-100% of your V02max, but its also important to run for a longer duration either by increasing time (up to 5 minutes according to Daniels) or reps. I'm assuming up to 5 minutes at the pace the Vdot has calculated is RIDICULOUSLY fast, and will only get faster. But 5k pace may put you right at the right pace and allow you to increase the duration or number of reps which seems to be key. Even J.Daniels says that its better to train at or a bit under your "I" pace then over it. Over your TRUE interval pace will just make you cut your training short, or more importantly tire you out for races.....
I'm 40, so I'm not that young. However, I have only been running for 2 years. I did run in college, but quit during my junior year. I guess you could say that I'm relatively undertrained aerobically, despite my age. I run about 60 miles a week, low 17's for 5K (but I keep improving).
Thank you all for your input.
you are prolly getting used to just the effort, not the pace. It is harder each rep for you because you gradually have to increase the intensity. Run with a watch to keep splits even.
DrFranklin wrote:
Because Daniels' training is bullshit.
How many runners has he made significant improvements with? Pre-established runners that he takes under his wing and stamps his name on do not count.
He is bullshit and his book is bullshit.
Its not, i improved 8 minutes for the 5k in one season with the Daniels program
Jon Orange wrote:
Lactate metabolism IS the aerobic contribution in a 5k. 100%
I'm operating under the assumption that all running speeds are on a spectrum. At sprint paces, it's mostly CP that is providing energy. On the other end, slow jogging is going to be mostly aerobic. There may be some lactate providing energy at that slow pace, but it's so small to be negligible. As the pace of running increases from slow jog to down to the middle distances, the percentage of lactate contributing to energy demands increases.
Since it's a spectrum there is no real dividing line, but traditionally we call 400-1500 the more "lactic" events. 5k and above I think of as more aerobic. Guess I'm not sure where 3k stands, but it doesn't really matter since these are arbitrary labels simply used for ease of discussion.
If my understanding of it is wrong please let me know, that's entirely possible. And what do you mean by your statement?
fasthudscho19 wrote:
Its not, i improved 8 minutes for the 5k in one season with the Daniels program
Well, if you improved 8 minutes in one season then you are obviously a beginner. That was his point, that it works for beginners, but not seasoned runners.
You improved 8 minutes, so that probably makes you, at fastest, a 18-19 minute guy now, right? (25:00 to 17:00 seems like too big of a leap...) So what kind of improvements have you seen in year 2 after getting down to 18-19?
your wrong it was my fourth year running so stop talking like you know everyh
Daniels is well suited to the recreational runner which, like it or not, most folks are. If you don't have the time or inclination to put in large amounts of mileage. Daniels' or a system like his is ideal, IMO.
fasthudscho19 wrote:
your wrong it was my fourth year running so stop talking like you know everyh
Perhaps "underdeveloped" would have been a better word than "beginner". Anyone anywhere who improves 8 minutes in one year in the 5k was way underdeveloped to begin with. Usually this is with beginners, but it sounds like it could also happen with someone in their 4th year of running.
I gotta ask, what were your times years 1, 2, and 3? Daniels isn't exactly rocket science, it's just a long run, tempo running, intervals at 3k-5k pace, then more intervals at 800-1500 pace. What the heck did your coach have you doing before that a basic plan like that could elicit an 8-minute improvement?
I've been doing the same Daniels program - 5k/10k for about a year. I actually prefer the I-paced workouts over the R-paced workouts simply because they're overwith faster. The R-paced workouts require so much rest - the workout ends up taking forever - like 2 hours including warmup, cooldown, and stretching.
Have you considered the possibility that you calculated your VDOT incorrectly?
alsdkjf al;sdifjal;sdfjasl wrote:
I've been doing the same Daniels program - 5k/10k for about a year. I actually prefer the I-paced workouts over the R-paced workouts simply because they're overwith faster. The R-paced workouts require so much rest - the workout ends up taking forever - like 2 hours including warmup, cooldown, and stretching.
Have you considered the possibility that you calculated your VDOT incorrectly?
My VDOT is correct. I'm presently running 17:15ish for 5K, and my I pace is 4:05. (In my original post I somehow wrote 3:50; I clearly grabbed the wrong number as I don't run 3:50's.) I've got a great Excel spreadsheet written by a gentleman named Pete Riegel that calculates your workout paces based on your latest race result using Daniel's formulas.
I agree about the R paced stuff. I set my alarm 30 minutes earlier than normal to squeeze all of that in!
Zvika wrote:
I'm in Phase III for the 5K/10K program. I have no problems whatsoever with the slower T pace as well as the quicker R pace. I have to intentionally keep from running too fast. However, the "I" interval pace, which lies in the middle, kicks my rear every time I do workouts at this pace. A typical workout is 5X1200 with 3:30 rest. I do the 1200s at my suggested pace of 3:50
Is this unusual?
I'd suggest breaking it up into shorter distances.
One of my favorites is 12x400 (~ 82s/lap for you), starting every 2:30, which gives you a bit over a minute rest between reps. Shorten the recovery if you feel your heart rate drops too much.
or 6x800 @ 2:44, with a 1 lap recovery jog between reps.