Clapper wrote:Do you really think a company should be telling you how to shave your face? WTF does that have to do with anything?
When you actually get a job in a performance environment, get back to us - you will have your answer then.
Clapper wrote:Do you really think a company should be telling you how to shave your face? WTF does that have to do with anything?
When you actually get a job in a performance environment, get back to us - you will have your answer then.
My take on it wrote:
In what way is a well groomed beard unprofessional?
Facial hair is not a professional look. If you think otherwise, walk into an interview w/ McKinsey or Goldman and tell us what happens.
Its not a discussion topic - its a fact. This is what most people in the workplace think. So get over it, and shave.
One Guy wrote:
I just want to add that I do not think this is solely an issue of the kids***. Companies are no longer extending any noticeable shred of loyalty to the workers, so why should workers act like they are lucky to be there?
Exactly. These companies expect the world and then let you go like you're just a number.
I'm not referring to myself, I just think it's strange to view a beard as unprofessional. Vin Lananna's beard for example is professional looking.
Ironically, my assistant and I were talking about that at practice yesterday. She's young but far from babyish. But, yes, overall SOME young people aren't as tough as they should be. I think it's more a problem of accepting excuses for poor performance.
My take on it wrote:
Vin Lananna's beard for example is professional looking.
How much revenue and P&L is VL responsible for? How much client interaction does he have?...I thought so...
it also helps that VL's boss - Phil Knight (the OWNER of Nike) - wears a beard too. So if your boss presents himself looking like a homeless golfer, so can you.
Off the Grid wrote:
Facial hair is not a professional look. If you think otherwise, walk into an interview w/ McKinsey or Goldman and tell us what happens.
Its not a discussion topic - its a fact. This is what most people in the workplace think. So get over it, and shave.
You seem to think that your personal job experience is, or should be, the norm for everybody. Well, not every workplace is Goldman or McKinsey, and not everybody has a desire to work there. To say that facial hair is "not a professional look" is simply incorrect. You meant to say "facial hair is not a professional look at the workplaces with which I am familiar."
You seem to think that your personal job experience is, or should be, the norm for everybody. Well, not every workplace is Goldman or McKinsey, and not everybody has a desire to work there. To say that facial hair is "not a professional look" is simply incorrect. You meant to say "facial hair is not a professional look at the workplaces with which I am familiar."
You are forgetting the Golden Rule, he who has the gold makes the rules. Every company has its own definition of image and if you want to be a member of a company's culture, you need to play by their rules until you are a big enough player in that culture to change the status quo.
Off the Grid wrote:
When you actually get a job in a performance environment, get back to us - you will have your answer then.
Damn man, you usually take the time to write pretty decent posts. I have actually been a fan of you for quite a while on here, but that is as big a troll post as I have ever seen... especially considering that the guy to whom you are responding was asking a serious question.
I often have a beard; I have also been very successful. I would consider my job extremely performance based. I am in PR and crises management and work for very well known clients. If it helps you understand my level of success, I have made over seven figures a year for the past ten years of my life.
You are projecting some crazy personal bias onto everyone here with your pubic hair quote. It is borderline offensive.
Now, just to be an ass... I actually worked with Goldman somewhat recently. I am not kidding. I seem to recall the head of compliance at Goldman Sachs - a VP mind you - having a goatee. Can anyone who might know this guy confirm...?
It would help if I could spell. Please ignore the horrible spelling and grammar, i posted thse from my phone.
Not the Boss wrote:
You are forgetting the Golden Rule, he who has the gold makes the rules. Every company has its own definition of image and if you want to be a member of a company's culture, you need to play by their rules until you are a big enough player in that culture to change the status quo.
What on earth does this have to do with anything I wrote? It doesn't address the point I made, at all. Since you missed it, my point was that what is considered "a professional appearance" may vary from workplace to workplace, industry to industry.
Off the Grid wrote:
walk into an interview w/ McKinsey or Goldman
I don't have a beard, and I am not a Millennial, but can someone please explain why anyone would want to work for one of these companies?
Granted, I am not in banking. I work in the CRE industry. This may be a more appropriate question for the "I Hate My Corporate Job" thread, but why the hell would you want to go slave away for some self-important group of people who make all kinds of soul-murdering rules?
I understand professionalism. I understand performance. I understand money.
I know that I make a lot more than probably 75% of the people working for Goldman. I cannot imagine more than a quarter of that company earns more than I do. I work hard, but I have time for my family... I have time to run... I have time to be social.
I just don't get it. I am not really knocking it; i just don't understand it. i would hate to have someone looking over my shoulder all the time, judging me for how I dress, etc.
For the record, I think I dress fine and present myself in a professional manner.
Huge Big Timer Man wrote:
I seem to recall the head of compliance at Goldman Sachs - a VP mind you - having a goatee. Can anyone who might know this guy confirm...?
I am bored so I did some light research. Looks like he has a stache now, but who knows what he used to have.
Also, there appears to be quite a few bearded guys running hedge funds tied to Goldman. Tim Rudderow has the 1.8 Billion Mount Lucas that I remember reading a lot about in late 2010. He has a beard.
Lets not forget about Mr. Ben S. Bernanke, who tells all these cats when to jump. Ben has quite the impressiv beard.
Off The Grid is probably some stupid kid who watched Wall Street 2 last night and think everyone looks like Shia LeBouf.
Off the Grid wrote:
When you actually get a job in a performance environment, get back to us - you will have your answer then.
I don't know about that. It seems to me that the more of a performance environment you're in, the less you are going to be evaluated on anything other than a pure performance metric. Sales, for example, is a serious performance environment. Your value to the company and your own income are based entirely on your performance, ie the dollar value of stuff that you sell. If you can move significant amounts of product, no one is going to much care if you do it with facial hair, or in a f***ing clown suit for that matter.
Same with any field where performance really matters. When one person is capable of producing more revenue than another, there isn't much room to evaluate on any criteria other than revenue production. For an extreme example, look at the stuff that big shot actors and professional athletes get away with.
It is the fields that aren't performance driven where an employer can easily make demands that go beyond performance. The guy who inputs data into an excel spreadsheet all day or does rote number crunching isn't really any different from anyone else doing the same job, so you can pretty much make any demand you want. There are a million other people who can do the exact same job if they aren't willing to comply.
I like big paychecks, what's the CRE industry?
Wish engineers got paid more wrote:
I like big paychecks, what's the CRE industry?
Commercial Real Estate. My brother in law makes huge bucks in CRE up in New York. It is ridiculous. His father is a real estate attorney and pretty much guided him into a big money job. He and my sister just bought a HUGE place in the city - Upper West Side. 4 bedrooms. They are in their early thirties.
"Young people these days are lazy and entitled and don't respect the old ways" - Every Old Person Ever.
Or to show you just how hackneyed this line of thinking is:
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. "
Socrates
Ho Hum wrote:
"Young people these days are lazy and entitled and don't respect the old ways" - Every Old Person Ever.
Or to show you just how hackneyed this line of thinking is:
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. "
Socrates
Yeah, I know every generation of old people back to the beginning of recorded history has said this, but today's young people really are like that. It's just different this time.
BottomLine wrote:
My take on it wrote:Vin Lananna's beard for example is professional looking.
How much revenue and P&L is VL responsible for? How much client interaction does he have?...I thought so...
it also helps that VL's boss - Phil Knight (the OWNER of Nike) - wears a beard too. So if your boss presents himself looking like a homeless golfer, so can you.
It's amazing that Nike has grown to what it is today despite the fact that Phil Knight has a beard. Just think what Phil could accomplish if he shaved.
