a sub 18 minute 5K....I'll do whatever you tell me

I have similar goals as this guy and haven't run much in a few years. My PR used to be low 17 5k. My question is... why would you recommend the guy do such long runs? My longest runs are usually 10 miles, not 16.

Wouldn't a shorter, faster run be more beneficial than such a long run if you're training for a 5k? Should I be rethinking my training strategy?

That's why I noted "keep in mind I'm ramping up for a marathon". I also assumed from the fact that the guy said he didn't have enough time to sleep that he wasn't going to devote time to doubles, but perhaps that's not fair. OP, time for doubles? :)

But 10 miles is really short for an experienced runner's long run, generally speaking. Even for 5k, a 90 minute weekly long run is going to give long-term benefits - but then cut out the mid-week long run of 13 that I do and replace it with a second LT pace run with an easy shakeout run as a double. Something like tues/friday LT, sun long; other days easy, with 4-5mi recovery days inserted as needed. No magic.

To both you and the OP, I should also clarify that you shouldn't think of that base training (lotsa running, not much harder than LT except for short strides) as the only thing. But ~12 weeks of it, definitely. I suggest base because the OP hadn't really been using a well-designed set of workouts, so he's likely to get good mitochondrial and capillary development out of base. Breaking 18 doesn't require much "speedwork" in the "omg, lots of 800 repeats" sense of it.

Thanks for the input. Can't/Won't do Doubles on a regular basis. I went off of minutes run (kind of like badger miles) to up my mileage b/c I got too caught up in pace and familiar loops that I knew. So while it's lacked a tempo run (at least officially...LT, same thing) it's had some faster runs in there and some easier runs as I just listen to my body and stop the watch when I've hit my minutes. This base has been 13 weeks long so it's getting to that time to transition. I don't want to hop in a 5K right now though.

I also agree I can handle 2 workouts and a long run but that's been a no-no in the past b/c I never ran the easy days easy enough. I love running with my girlfriend when I get the chance. I think I could manage to slow it down this time around though.

Try using heart rate. It doesn't let you lie to yourself as easily. Instead of just listening to the forums spout some daily runs, though, look at McMillan's "formula" -- pick your primary training goal (threshold training / tempo, most likely) and schedule it once a week. Pick a secondary goal (neuromuscular speed - 150s, 200s, whatever), and alternate that one with the primary as your second workout in the week. (week one: two LT workouts; week two: one LT, one speed). Fill the other training days as appropriate with "easy" pace and recovery days as you feel appropriate. Use his little calculator widget and/or your HRM to figure out training pace. If you're currently doing 19:30 5k, then the widget says "easy" for you is 7:45 - 8:15 and "recovery" is basically 8:45 or slower. Steady state about 6:55 pace, which sounds about right given that you were doing 6:50s a while ago during your HM training. But don't stick with those paces - use the HRM and track your HR vs speed and adjust the paces down as you're running faster at the same HR, which you will. If you're feeling like you're not working hard enough, increase your volume - the training paces will drop by themselves.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/training1.htm

Tom Selle wrote:

Can't/Won't do Doubles on a regular basis.

There's the problem. Well then I guess you won't do whatever you are told if you neglect one of the most important elements of training.

And I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

I'd run right into hell and back.

I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

I'll never lie to you and that's a fact.

But I'll never forget the way you feel right now, oh no, no way.

And I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

Oh I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

But I won't do that,

No I won't do that.

And some days it don't come easy,

And some days it don't come hard,

Some days it don't come at all, and these are the days that never end.

And some nights you're breathing fire.

And some nights you're carved in ice.

Some nights you're like nothing I've ever seen before or will again.

And maybe I'm crazy.

Oh it's crazy and it's true.

I know you can save me, no one else can save me now but you.

As long as the planets are turning.

As long as the stars are burning.

As long as your dreams are coming true, you'd better believe it!

That I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

And I'll be there till the final act.

And I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

And I'll take the vow and seal a pact.

But I'll never forgive myself if we don't go all the way, tonight.

And I would do anything for a sub 18 minute 5k,

But I won't do that.

No, I won't do that!

Hi Tom

I'm an endurance coach and willing to help you out.

Obviously if you take up my offer I'll need your email address so I can contact you personally. I'll send you through an initial 'questionnaire' if you like, just to get to see what you're like and your training habits, so we can see the best path forward.

Let me know what you think.

To be perfectly honest, you sound like an identity thief.

This is what I planned on doing for a 6 week stretch. It drops my mileage a bit which is the only drawback, but I might feel "fresher."

1. 90 minutes and strides

2. 40 easy

3. 60 total (either 16-20x1 minute, 30 s jog

8-10x2 minutes, 60s jog

6x3 minutes, 90s jog...10Kish pace)

4. 40 easy

5. 60 with strides

6. 15 easy, 30-40 at tempo pace, 15 easy

7. 30 easy

The tossup is that if I run true recovery pace, those 30 and 40 minute days are like 3.5 and 4.5 miles. So 12.5 over 3 days. So looking at only 40 or so miles, down from 50-55, but I want those easy days to be truly easy.

Good for you, maybe you have more talent or trained a lot harder than I do. Maybe you could have been faster if you lost some weight. Let's face it 14:33 isn't all that.

I improved from 15:35 to 14:50 last year, I put this mainly down to a healthier diet, cutting out junk/excess fat. I'm still improving fast and hope to go well under 14:30 this year. My point stands that diet is important, weight isn't the number one thing but it does give an indication. How many Africans do you see lugging round excess pounds?

If you're running 55mpw now, you probably don't need to only run for 30 on your light days. If you're feeling good enough after the first two times of using 40 easy as your recovery day, just stick with that for day 7. So you've got: Long, Easy, Speed, Easy, general aerobic, tempo, easy.

One thought: 30-40 at "tempo" pace, just so we're clear on terminology, would probably really be at McMillan's "steady state" pace from his calculator widget, which corresponds about with what other people call LT pace.

Give it a shot. If it's not enough mileage, which, after you've done the workouts once or twice, it probably won't be, that's easy to fix by adding more easy ("general aerobic", not "recovery") running.

You are young and relatively new to running. Just keep putting in the miles, don't get injured and you will break 18 guaranteed.

One thing that might help you get there a bit quicker is to practice running close to race pace. Breaking 18 will require you to run at about a 5:48 pace. Get used to running at that pace. In addition to your other speedwork, make sure you do at least a few mile intervals and maybe a 2-mile interval at that pace every week. Your body will adapt to the pace and you should eventually feel natural running at that pace.

To be perfectly honest, you sound effing ungrateful.

The guy tries to help you, yet you take advice from someone who barely knows you and your individual characteristics.

Bad luck in your training mate!

Identity thief?

What's he going to steal? Your name? Your main sport?

Get a grip, punk!

Yeah I am quite a bit miffed at that 'remark'.

I've coached regional champions, and I don't usually 'coach' people I don't know. But you seemed to be pretty focused and something that I could specifically help you with.

And you go on about identity! I am a bit disappointed at that, but you'd rather rely on non-coaches.

All the best.

Endurance coach - I'm hoping to break 15 minutes would your offer advice to other athletes? Thanks?

Didn't mean to come off as disrespectful. Simply cautious. I like the forum for its open dialogue. I'm not the most tech savvy person so I get a little hesitant when conversation gets taken past the forum.

I appreciate your offer to help.

Do this:

Monday: 60 minutes

Tuesday: Daniel's I-pace workout of some sort (8x2:30 I-pace w/1:20 E-pace jog)

Wednesday: 60 minutes

Thursday: 60 minutes

Friday: R-pace workout (8x1:30 R-pace w/ 3:30 recovery)

Saturday: 60 minutes

Sunday: 75 minutes

You might've just opened a new hotmail account, sent the guy your address, and see if what he can offer is helpful. You sound like my parents who think a person can hack your social security number and bank account from a Facebook page.

Tom, I know that you just turned 26, but some of what I saw in high school may be helpful.

We rarely had a kid who trained as a distance runner before high school. From day one, some kids were very fast over several miles, many were in the middle, and a few were very slow. Within three months of training, about 30 mpw as freshmen, 5K times were everywhere from the high 16s to 22/23 mins. We had a good number who ran from freshman year to senior year and perhaps a quarter of the team never got into the 17s. Some got there freshman year, others sophomore, junior or senior years. Mileage for upperclassmen, unless a person did separate training, was in the 40s. The point is that the Letsrun experience, where lots of posters were at one point in the 14s or 15s, is not typical, nor does it explain most people's experience or path to improving in running. It's like asking a Calculus professor how to get better and math involving fractions. He's not likely well attuned to the ordinary person's challenge.

Remembering back to the team, and how some people who were not improving as hoped from year to year, let alone being in the top 5 for cross country, got better, I remember a few things.

They learned to challenge themselves, once per week, in either a race, or a hard workout. Many of the slower runners were too timid in the face of physical discomfort with a race pace and ran times slower than their actual ability. Some of them had been running in a comfort zone, not fully training, just running easy miles with the entire team on slow days, back in a second or third pack with one another on faster workout days, and then coming in far behind in the races.

For my own summer training, I did this myself by mixing a two mile run in the middle of a longer workout, once per week. It was always in the same place and my goal was to hammer it and improve on my best ever time on that part of the route. Kids who never really challenged themselves were at risk of stagnating, whether they were already faster or relatively slower. The results for those who did learn to push themselves through experiential limits once per week started training and racing harder, because they saw results. I later changed to two mile interval to whatever distance I selected from any distance I kept PRs for. I had six of them. My rationale was that if I was improving in fitness and in competitiveness, once per week, I would run a PR. It was a good motivational device for me. Some weeks, I would do more than one on PR day, such as if I had a relatively old PR I would update it after setting a newer one, or as a split in a longer one.

Additional miles. Two slower seniors, who were in the high 17s and low 18s, after their last cross country season was over, worked up from the team's 40ish mpw to 70ish for a spring marathon, separate from the team, but with the coach's instruction. They rocketed ahead of many on the team who had been doing track workouts for indoor and outdoor, and both took more than a minute off their two mile times, getting into the low tens. They did not run 5Ks then, but I would estimate that they were in high 16s, low 17s shape and these were two kids who were astounded at becoming as fast as they did. These were not fast or athletic kids in the least, but the miles really helped them to transform in about five months, after three years of running much slower times.

In summary, push yourself out of your comfort zone once per week to get a PR and run more miles overall.

Good luck.