This is appalling....and nauseating..and back to appalling

pro life would be liberal wrote:

Please realize that Barack Obama supported a woman's right to have late term abortions.

Is it different than what was done here? Yes, but only slightly. Essentially, if these babies heads were still in the uterus Obama would support the MD performing this same procedure.

Just don't do it to a dog or a cat, because that would be wrong.

another average american wrote:

But if abortion is murder (which it what it would be considered if it were outlawed), why would it be acceptable in the case of rape? If "killing" the fetus is tantamount to killing a newborn, as some conservatives suggest, then abortion should never be allowed, ever, not even in the case of rape. And I am a woman.

This is a poor line of thinking. Killing someone is not automatically murder. An obvious example: killing in defense of a third party is not murder (depending on the state). Another: the guy who executes a criminal is not committing murder.

There are certainly problems with making exceptions to rape, but that really isn't one.

And it is obvious you are a woman.

In Cuba, if there is a chance that the infant could die shortly after birth, they pull the plug. Statistics will tell you anything that you want them too. Not something Michael Moore shows in his movies, so I'm sure most people won't believe it.

However, there is a problem with medical care, in general, in poor parts of the US.

My girlfriend and I argue about this from time to time. Is it right in the case of incest and/or rape? Is it right if the woman is in jeopardy? Should underage girls need to get consent? How many times do these come up? What if dad is the father of his daughter's baby and will beat her if she tries to get an abortion?

F*ck! you tell me!

Also: it is murder to kill a fetus in many states unless the woman consents to it by getting an abortion.

A few thoughts:

1) Does arguing about this issue bring about any change, either for or against abortion?

2) If not, it seems to me that since some people consider abortion murder, the only way to bring about any change would be some sort of war.

3) A war doesn't seem likely any time soon, so are the current abortion laws going to stay in place for a long time now?

Responses are welcome.

abortion luver wrote:

If the baby can not live outside the womb (unaided, not in a NICU) it is not yet a baby.

Very slippery slope. No new born baby can survive without aid of a someone else. Or maybe we should delay giving the right of living human being to when they are grown and financially independent?

All of the hardcore men who support anti-abortion from conception would not mind getting a uterus shoved up their ass with a sex change, bringing the baby to term, then switching their parts back. Show us your commitment boys.

another average american wrote:

But if abortion is murder (which it what it would be considered if it were outlawed), why would it be acceptable in the case of rape? If "killing" the fetus is tantamount to killing a newborn, as some conservatives suggest, then abortion should never be allowed, ever, not even in the case of rape. And I am a woman.

Correct, I agree it's hypocritical to accept abortions sometimes if you do believe it is murder, that's why I go with the viewpoint it's murder and am against it in its entirety.

If you believe it is a life then you can't use the rape/incest or life of the woman argument-this is why: imagine that you have caught a terrorist (who has committed murder) that has knowledge about a hidden bomb about to go off or an attack etc and you want to torture except he won't give into anything. Not to be too stereotypical, but imagine if he was okay with dying for his cause and it didn't matter to him if he died or got hurt. HOWEVER, he wouldn't be too happy if you tortured or killed his wife and/or kid and would be willing to give you information if you tortured one of them.

Is it okay to torture his wife or kid? It would be for a good cause right? Stopping an attack or a bomb going off? However it involves the torture and/or death of innocent parties who haven't been killers. It get's him to talk, but it involves INNOCENT lives. You wouldn't do it right? Because no matter what his actions were, the innocent lifes of his wife and kid don't deserve to end.

SAME THING with abortion from rape/incest or life of mother. Okay it's for a great cause, saves the life of the mother etc but you are hurting an INNOCENT LIFE separate from yourself, and in the same way that you wouldn't torture the innocent wife of a murdering terrorist to get information, you wouldn't kill an innocent baby to save the life of the mother.

turkey leg wrote:

[quote]abortion luver wrote:

No new born baby can survive without aid of a someone else.

and therein is the crux of the whole problem. Not only can a newborn not survive on it's own, it cannot have a productive life without many years of very active support of at least one parental adult. When that enormous burden falls unduly on (primarily - and often economically struggling, or impoverished) single women, whose to say she doesn't have the right to terminate that life? What about a couple? Impoverished or not, but just not prepared?

Personally, I think we lie to ourselves about abortion a great deal. It certainly is terminating a human life. I don't see how anyone with a straight face can argue that. But, is terminating a pre-term human life necessarily wrong? If we as Americans can frame the debate that way, than i'm all about discussing what's best in what circumstances and what's not. But we don't do that. And as long as we cannot argue the truth about it, i'm all for just keeping the laws the way they are.

abortion luver wrote:

If the baby can not live outside the womb (unaided, not in a NICU) it is not yet a baby.

Then I wasn't a baby when I was born? You sir, are stupid.

another average american wrote:

sdfasdasd wrote:

This has nothing to do with religion or personhood One must only respect life to know that abortion is evil.

I 100% respect life, but I am also pro-choice. I do not believe that a fetus is necessarily alive.

The question is where life begins -- most people agree that a blastula is not alive, and most people agree that the fetus a day before the due date is alive. Where does the switch occur? Science can't answer this. Religion can, but our laws are not (and should not be) based on religion.

I don't think abortion is an issue that can ever be resolved.

I stand on the other side of the issue in that I believe abortion is wrong, but I can see where you are coming from completely and though I disagree I at least respect your opinion and where you are coming from. Those that support late term abortions however should be charged with murder and given the death penalty themselves.

Precious Roy wrote:[/b

Poor women have virtually no access to safe abortions or even prenatal care (US is well behind Cuba in infant mortality ....

Is abortion even allowed in Cuba, being a Catholic country?

And the poor US women with no access - aren't they on Medicaid? Is there to be more of these alley hacks with our future of government-run health care? Yikes!

I have an analogy for a rape pregnancy that is surely muddled at best, but I keep tossing it around in my mind: If a person is attacked, for example, shot in the leg, and is given the option of either months of surgery and rehab or removal of the leg, which would a person choose? A pregnancy from a rape is the end result of an attack with the option of removal or some months or (if you choose to keep the baby) several years of inconvenience. I know what my choice would be; I have friends who have chosen differently and I can't imagine their lives had they made a different decision. Abortion is a tough topic, but it seems clear to me that this PA doctor murdered live, though premature babies.

another average american wrote:

I 100% respect life, but I am also pro-choice. I do not believe that a fetus is necessarily alive.

And here's what I think the problem is. You "believe". According to my own "beliefs", many others have committed wrongs that they "believed" to be okay.

1. Slavery. Many believed blacks were sub-human.

2. Nazi Germany (and no one better bring up Godwin's law). They believed Jews were a problem.

3. Reign of Terror

4. Inquisition

5. Salem witch trials

I could go on. Realize I'm not attacking you're stance on the issue, but I'd rather like to encourage you to think that from a different perspective than your own some people consider this a violation of another human's rights (the fetus/baby of course has no voice unlike the examples I've given so it is necessary for those with a voice to object in their stead).

My same argument could be applied to killing animals for food. Am I committing a wrong by eating them then? I don't feel guilty about it. I suppose some people do. Similarly -- for abortion, I would feel horribly guilty. Some people wouldn't I guess.

Of the 5 examples I listed, if enough people had never objected (or fought over it), they would not likely have ended. So for the pro-life people, if you want to bring about a change, you need to get on the ball.

Crap. I can't believe I used "you're" in place of "your". I don't think I've ever done that. Consider it retracted.

Sorry for the bold blunder.

This is not abortion. This is sickening.

Agreed. I actually used this exact same argument against an overall ban on abortions an a different post (I won't repeat the entire thing here).

I'm not sure why (if you're referring to my post where I took the "abortion is murder" logic to its logical conclusion). The absolute only reason abortion would be outlawed is if it is considered murdering a baby. If aborting a fetus from careless sex = murdering a baby from careless sex, aborting a fetus resulting from rape = murdering a baby resulting from rape, which we would never condone. I'm not sure where my logic is faulty here.

So I'm actually not quite sure what you're arguing. Are you saying that abortion is not murder in general? Or that it is murder when performed on a fetus resulting from careless sex but it is not murder when performed on a fetus resulting from rape? It's an honest question...I just don't understand.

What's that supposed to mean?

Congratulations! you go to med school. Stop trying to have an intelligent conversation about abortion on a running message board.

What is worse? Snipping with a scissors or sucking out brains?