pros and cons of attempting to get an entry-level job with a CS major

JavaME is 13 years old and owns the mobile market with 2.1 billion Java ME phones and devices.

The courts forced Microsoft to adhere to the Java spec which is precedent and the same will happen with Google Android. Rumors are the settlement is close. Google has to put it behind them beacuse of the bad publicity.

There's 20% effective unemployment here in Silicon Valley. I'm on the board of a Free Health Clinic and the number of walk-ins have gone way up. Former IT, CS, FW guys are many of our clients.

It's bad here. On Saturtdays, RE agents put up tents on main streets in Santa Clara, etc. trying to attract drive-bys to unload foreclosures. Look at how many auto dealers on Stvn Vk and El Cam have shut down. Look at all the lunchtime delis thatn have shutdown.

The classes at DeAnza, Mission, Foothill, West Valley, Evergreen, Skyline are full of unemployed SW engineers looking for new careers.

I've lived in Niorth San Jose, Cupertino, Mountain View, Palo Alto, Los Altos Hills, etc. since the 70s, and the traffic in the morning is the lightest since then.

Then when it contracts everyone comments on how many empty offices there are). Others are for different sized business (not many software companies need a campus that was build for 2000 employees).

The last downturn was in 94 period and only lasted a year. It picked up in 95, in anticipation of Clinton's, Telecomm Reform Act of 96, which broke up the telcos.

The present downturn we are in i'm afraid is permanent. It's in it's 10th year. Many say it's the lifecycle for the computer industry. I.E. it matured in 2002 and moved to Asia and Europe. The same happend with Detroit autos in the 80s.

During 1940s Silicon Valley was given birth by Hansen and his invention of the Klystron. Then in 1970s Busicomm Japan invented the microprocessor with Intel. I thought Green Tech would be the start of the revival. Maybe Electric Vehicles ?

Are you talking about software engineers, or software "engineers"? I don't live anywhere near silicon valley, but if those idiots are going to food banks and free clinics, they should come get jobs in Colorado. I've worked with EE, CE, and SE's through the whole dot com bust, and haven't known a single person that was unemployed for more than 3 months. Now, I do know a lot of business majors that dabbled in Java and called themselves software engineers, but really didn't know WTF they were doing. Basically coders. They could get jobs as software "engineers" back in the heyday of the dot com boom. But now they aren't even considered. Same as IT guys that used to cross over into software. Those days are gone. But for software engineers that have an actual engineering degree, the job market seems stable and growing. I googled software engineer career outlook and the first match said this:

Employment of computer software engineers is projected to increase by 38 percent over the 2006 to 2016 period, which is much faster than the average for all occupations. This occupation will generate about 324,000 new jobs, over the projections decade, one of the largest employment increases of any occupation.

Even if job security were an issue, it's an issue in almost every field at one time or another. But it's tough to beat the overall job quality as a software engineer.

Surveys like the BCS is designed to sell TV ads. USNWR College Rankings are designed to sell magazine stand copies at airports.

Whether you have an accredited engineering degree or not, virtually every CS/IT job can be done for less money by non-degreed engineers and by persons in low cost areas of Asia and Europe.

At the fabless semiconductor venture that I'm involved with now, we don't have any SW needs that can't be handled by the EE/MechE/MatE engineers since engineers learn SW in school anyways.

At a past recent telecomm infrastructure venture we used Java engineers in Bangalore, Tel Aviv, and Prague for 1/5th of Silicon Valley cost.

Whenever you read stories of unemployed software engineers, 99% of them are ITT (and not the indian one) grads. I am told their are also age issues but again I have never seen this. I have hired 55 year old programers. No one older ever applied for a job at any of the companies I worked for

The courts ruled the Microsoft violated their agreement with Sun. Google doesn't have such an agreement.20% effective unemployment is pretty much everywhere in the country. It is a result of using made up numbers. In the boom days when unemployment was 5%, the effective unemployment was over 10.

> The courts ruled the Microsoft violated their agreement with Sun. Google doesn't have such an agreement.

Google Android is subject to the same license that Microsoft is as are all Javasoft licensees. Javasoft does not have a custom/special license with Microsoft nor with Android. Android R&D people have told me that it's only a compile time flag to incorporate 100% JavaME license compliance and is why Android will agree to comply with the Oracle/Javasoft license. Of course it's more than just that, after they compile in the compliance, they need to go thru a complete QA cycle before the SDK is released.

>20% effective unemployment is pretty much everywhere in the country. It is a result of using made up numbers. In the boom days when unemployment was 5%, the effective unemployment was over 10.

The point is that most people move to Silicon Valley to start companies. SW ventures have shrunk. The opportunities to make it big have evaporated. Sure, there are regular salaried jobs around. But few people move here just to get a ordinary job. The heyday is over for SW in Silicon Valley. SW is now focused in India, E Eur, Iran, China.

EE, CE (Digital), RF are not that hot either, just a few of us are still around doing traditional EE/CE/RF product R&D. The new areas "appear" to be Bio Tech, Green Tech, Mech E, Genetic E, etc. but nobody can predict the future.

Whenever you read stories of unemployed software engineers, 99% of them are ITT (and not the indian one) grads. I am told their are also age issues but again I have never seen this.

You are clueless. Microsoft licensed Java. Google claims to have a clean room version and hence no need for license. Oracle disagrees. And your delusional if you think a compile time flag can solve the ton of fundental differences between android and javaMe.

This Silly Valley guy doesn't know what he is talking about. There are plenty of CS jobs - the salaries mentioned are about right.

I was a good, but not excellent student at a good, but not excellent school (3.2 GPA, higher within my major) and I got a job on the basis of actually knowing something about programming. Most people who apply evidently do not.

I got offered $65k to start and took it, cuz this was in fall of 08. Got promoted to senior a month or two ago, have had offers from other companies for $75k but am not really interested. This is in New England, btw - salaries probably higher on the west coast. This area, west coast, NC, and Austin probably the best places to do SW.

If you're a crappy software engineer, your job has gone to India. If you're good, there are still MANY to be had here. Make sure you understand fundamentals (stuff like how computationally expensive an algorithm is, memory management, tradeoffs in data structures..) Every time I go on facebook, there are software engineering wanted ads on the side. There are too many SW jobs for US grads to actually fill.

I've had a good experience but that's because I like solving problems and am comfortable socially interacting with nerds. I also got lucky with a good job right out of college.

Oh, one last thing: don't get a CS job in NYC. They're mostly financially focused, and while they are high paying, they're miserable places to work.

Consider specializing in a slightly less technical, but, higher paying arena. Understanding medical, legal or financial industries (yes, something other than pure coding) pushes you business value up the scale quite a bit. Not everyone can be a brilliant coder. But, if you are a good coder who understands the actual applications of what you are writing, you will outperform folks who are geniuses in the classroom but have trouble learning how to relate to the people that pay their bills. Also, consider work in security related coding. Big industry with some future. Not as big as folks make it out to be, but, if you truly get grounded in how to code securely (think C, C++, some virtualized environment, SQL, network, etc) you can actually make decent bank.

I agree with you that there are plenty of jobs in SW due to the retiring baby boomers. Wages are not hot anymore. The multiples are gone, meaning venture funding and lucrative stock options. The SW is almost done. My generation created the mini, wp, micro, server, & internet industry. We made good money and had tons of stock. That was then. Now the venture opportunities in SW have dwindled. It's nearly over now. The next wave in computers looks to be a small wave. So if I were in school today I would not study CS, CE, IT, nor EE, but look at other engineering and bio areas.

MS & Google have the same license that you and I and millions of others whom have downloaded various free Java downloads agreed to before downloading it. MS agreed to it and so did Google. You and I did too. The judge ruled in Javasoft'sfavor.

If you're a crappy software engineer, your job has gone to India. If you're good, there are still MANY to be had here. Make sure you understand fundamentals (stuff like how computationally expensive an algorithm is, memory management, tradeoffs in data structures..)

Not so. The SW kids in low wage Israel, India, Russia, Iran use the same texts (in English) as US schools. The professors in those countries are just as published and as notable as US profs. I've paid 1/5th for low cost overseas SW development. I never used 2nd tier wage (1/2) areas myself like Ireland, Spain, and Portugal.

Your an idiot. In 1999 Sun's license didn't give you source code (like microsoft had). The two cases aren't related in anyway (other than both have the word Java in it)

Silly Valley wrote:

MS & Google have the same license that you and I and millions of others whom have downloaded various free Java downloads agreed to before downloading it. MS agreed to it and so did Google. You and I did too. The judge ruled in Javasoft'sfavor.

Everyone has access to the complier code. It's a concise LALR(1) grammar unlike C, C++, Verilog. The Java guy took the compiler class at CMU as an undergrad unlike K & R who went to school before there were compiler classes, S who didn't study CS, and P & P who studied EE. The complier is very small because Java requires no ad hoc productions.

Android tried the same cheap trick the Microsoft did. They "wrinkled" it then tried to lie about it as being unique. It's kinda a funny case around here. It's a Middlefield Road high school rivalry gone amuck since Android and Google are only a few miles apart in Mountain View (also the home of Track and Field News).

I meant Javasoft and Android are down the street from each other.

Can we get back to the OP's topic? What are you claiming? That a software engineering job in the US has no future? That's your tone. I disagree. I think software engineers have a great future...better than most industries.

My company does mobile apps. Almost 100% Java & C derivatives. We work with Java Mobile, Symbian, iPhone, Android.

Question: Why pay for a Stanford CS grad when the chances are he'll quit in a year to start his own company ? A Heald CS grad is a better employee since he will have the same productivity and will at least stick around for 3-4 years.