Craig Virgin Comments: World Cross Country

Ummm, wow. Ballsy. http://www.xclegacy.citymax.com/usa_dream_team.html

malmo wrote:

Would you cite your references A.N?

Sure. Michael Sandrock, Running with the Legends (1996), at 120 ("For example, when Rodgers won New York in 1978, he received $10,000 to show up and $10,000 to win."), 125 ("[Rodgers] told Olson [sic -- I believe he's referring to Eric Olsen, who wrote for the now-defunct magazine "The Runner" back in the early 1980s] he earned about $600,000 in 1983, half from endorsements and half from races and clinics.").

douglas burke wrote:

[quote]DruWan wrote:

I think the above is BS. If Virgin would have had the opportunity to run a spring marathon with a big enough appearance fee and the chance to get some meaningful prize money, I'm guessing that he would have run the marathon over World XC.

actually craig virgin finished 2nd in boston in 1981, 3 weeks after he had won the 1981 world xc.

bill rodgers ran the first sub 2:10 by an american 3 weeks after his world xc 3rd place finish.

a couple of years ago shami of qatar was 8th in world xc championships then 2-3 weeks later won paris in 2:07:19 in unusually hot conditions.

if someone can run well in world xc, they can run a good marathon.

I think the point is you can run a good spring marathon off of the World XC. No matter what the appearance fee.

American born distance runners are not going to be challenging the Africans on the World X-Country scene--Read the results in recent years and tell me where you see evidence that this year will be any different.

Even more than today, the World's XC was/is considered the most competitive race in the world. For a guy like Virgin, there was no other race of importance (marathons aside) in the Spring. Yes, money has changed things, but for a guy who wanted to test himself against the best in the world, there was no better place.

The realist wrote:

Tegenkamp: Mysteriously disappeared after fast track 5k over a year ago.

Solinski: See Tegenkamp

The realist don't pay much attention to anything.

I wasn't around the scene in the Virgin, Rodgers days, but wonder how much influence agents had then vs. now. The agent isn't getting paid for world cross and today's agents have a sophisticated view of the market due to their accumulation of athletes. Was that the case then?

blue nun wrote:

Truth Sayer wrote:

Nothing we didn't already know.

No reason why we can't challenge for the podium spot with these guys in the mix:

Rupp

Ritz

Solinsky

Tegenkamp

Webb

We can challenge for a team medal only if each one of these guys all happen to have a career PR day on the same day. Of course this is about as likely as all of the Kenyan or Ethiopian team having a career day on the same day. In which case, they still kick the US's ass.

There are 3 podium spots. Give gold and silver to Kenya and Ethiopia (in no particular order), who do you have for third if our best were to show up?

Buffalo Billy wrote:

American born distance runners are not going to be challenging the Africans on the World X-Country scene--Read the results in recent years and tell me where you see evidence that this year will be any different.

Really? We won't unless we start racing them. What an asinine defeatist attitude. We have five guys who could arguably run 13:00 or faster, only a few other countries can sport that number. In cross, hell yeah we can compete. You are already defeated, take your inferiority complex and go back to your life knowing you will never make it because the guy across the street is better than you, seriously? Hell yes we not only can medal, we can f***ing win!

HolySh** wrote:

Really? We won't unless we start racing them. What an asinine defeatist attitude. We have five guys who could arguably run 13:00 or faster, only a few other countries can sport that number. In cross, hell yeah we can compete. You are already defeated, take your inferiority complex and go back to your life knowing you will never make it because the guy across the street is better than you, seriously? Hell yes we not only can medal, we can f***ing win!

Firstly, of course we can medal, since nearly every year the 3rd spot is up for grabs after usual domination by Kenyans, and sometimes domination by Ethiopians. So with our recent resurgence, of course we could medal, there is no doubt about this.

But one thing I think is often overlooked in these "what if we brought ALLLLL our top guys to world cross!?!" threads, and that is: it isn't like Kenya is even CLOSE to bringing "allll" their top guys either. Lately they bring a B or C team at best and still dominate. For every great guy we have skipping world cross, they have 2 or 3 ALSO skipping world cross. The ENTIRE race, not just the US team, is watered down compared to what it might be without track and road $ stealing away great runners. East Africans are the ones cleaning up all the prize $ on the roads, not us. So they are the ones whose teams are being at least equally diluted. Lets remember that when we discuss such hypothetical match-ups. Or are some of you saying: 'hey, if we bought all our best guys, and made world cross the absolute #1 focus of the year, we might challenge Kenya's C team!' If that's what some of you are saying, I don't disagree, but I don't really think that that is so worth getting worked up about.

Bottom line: if there was a world cross race with a $20 million team prize on the line, and all other championship races were suspended for the year, and every nation bought their absolute best guys from roads, track, and X-C for all the marbles...... Kenya and Ethiopia absolutely dominate, and maybe the US has a shot for a distant 3rd. Which is great, but let's be realistic about what we (some of you) are discussing (which seems to be: hypothetical match-up of USA Dream Team vs Kenya and Ethiopia C team).

Whoever they bring, you're never going to beat them if you don't go to race them.

I think money is an issue. They are pro's and this is how they make a living. How about their repserctive shoe companies putting up some money to get them there. Take the top 6 and whatever shoe comoanies they run for give them bonuses for going and based on how well they do. What'll it take? $50,000 per runner or so and it's a decent pay day.

$$$$$$ $$$$$$ Nice to see what motivates our runners, I used to think these guys dreamed of running for their country and wearing their nation's three proud lettered uniform.

Is this really what these guys are all about?

These guys either need to step up or get out of the way. As for "B" or "C" teams, BS! Looks who has competed the past few years, the best of the best. I guess Bekele is a "B" or "C" guy. What a disconnect.

Bottom line, we have the guys and if they don't step up they need to get out of the way. Their true, TRUE, colors should be RED, WHITE, & BLUE. Period.

And I'm sure you go to work for free, right? Otherwise stop telling these guys how they should make their living.

The 10k figures were the same that I heard and actually read somewhere, so I absolutely believe that.

Obviously Salazar made a decent figure in 1981 as things were changing and he had predicted a world record which prompted live television coverage for the first time. The amount he was paid may have or may not have had something to do with Bill not running,as in the amount Lebow was willing to pay him versus Alberto, who had won the year before in his first attempt. I watched the race and specifically remember Jim McKay saying that Bill Rodgers will not be running as expected, pulling out at the last hour.

Yes, I remember his company Front Runner Inc., but with Rodgers having won the year (80') before and Seko there as well, I am still curious what they could have paid Craig Virgin to show. Not sure on this, but I believe it was his 2nd marathon and he had run 2:14-2:15 at Chicago, but that is "totally off memory", so I admit up front that I could be dead wrong on that.

Regardless, with Seko there I could see Virgin getting some "okay" money up front, but without major marathon credentials I can't imagine that it was anything huge, even for that time. But with his CC credentials going in, I hope for his sake it was because he had earned it. In addition, you are right, he certainly did know how to market himself, so he could have done better than I seem to think. Craig?

I ran Boston in 82' and he was there....leaning against a wall watching Alberto, Bill, Waitz, among others 2 days before the race doing a question and answer type of thing. I know he was injured and that it must have sucked having to watch versus being up there answering questions. Craig had done the commentary for NY 6 months prior when Alberto ran for the record. He was on the lead vehicle giving a blow by blow of the race. He actually did a pretty decent job and can be seen in the background when Alberto was being interviewed by Jim Lampley after the race. Good memories for sure.

Craig had also ran Falmouth in 81' taking 2nd to Alberto, who set the then course record. Shorter interviewed him after the race and it was funny when Frank said you ran well today but we'd like to see you run a little better and Craig said jokingly "give me a break Frank, I got second place", or something along those lines. I've got that race on Beta but am clueless as to how to upload the thing. Frank actually did the race commentary on that race and he was great.

Bill's 600k, totally believable. The man was running races weekend after weekend. Funny thing happened at one race. He ran a race in Denver in 1982, give or take a year, and got an appearance fee somewhere in the neighborhood of $7,000 to run. Herb Lindsay, living and training there got nothing. When he asked he was told they would waive his entry fee ($5 I think), but then they could use his name for pre-race advertising. Lindsay said something along the lines that I'm only worth the entry fee and Bill got an appearance fee? He then paid the entry fee himself and ran the race, winning. He had gotten out in front of Rodgers and held his 100 plus yard lead the entire race.....until the finish. Then he slowed down and walked/jogged the last stretch until crossing the finish line just ahead of Bill and vacated the area. True story.

So then Craig Virgin, how much did you make to run Boston in 1981:)?

p.s. Sorry for all the race stories, but man this thead brought back some memories on the good ole' days.

Rupp

Ritz

Solinsky

Tegenkamp

Webb

Hall

have never won anything beyond the odd trials race and ncaa crap

these guys may never win anything

career highlight will be Footlocker/ HS

"Look boy that's granddad at footlocker"

"Grampa came 4th at the London Marathon"

"No not the London Olympics!....go out side and play kid."

fgfg wrote:

Rupp

Ritz

Solinsky

Tegenkamp

Webb

Hall

have never won anything beyond the odd trials race and ncaa crap

these guys may never win anything

career highlight will be Footlocker/ HS

"Look boy that's granddad at footlocker"

"Grampa came 4th at the London Marathon"

"No not the London Olympics!....go out side and play kid."

Elite Turkey Trotters

Wow, a little rough aren't you? Ryan was 25 years old at the 08' London race and running against an amazing field. He ran 2:06:17 and was fifth place, a mere 1:02 behind the winner, Martin Lel. Seriously, you must really have something personal against him because that was one fine performance. The odd trials race? What was odd about it?

Adding to the comments from Douglas Burke, Shorter won the Olympic Marathon one week after coming in fifth in the Olympic 10,000, which raises a few questions. Currently, the idea driving marathon training is that especially in the last six weeks (even twelve weeks), the training has to be marathon specific, which would appear to preclude running fast over 12k or 10,000. However, Rogers, Virgin, and Shorter apparently give lie to that. So--Were they able to do this because they didn't have the number of Africans to run against then Americans face now? Is the training they were doing, which allowed them to run fast over shorter distances and still do well in the marathon, inconsistent with running 2:06?

douglas burke wrote:

[quote]DruWan wrote:

I think the above is BS. If Virgin would have had the opportunity to run a spring marathon with a big enough appearance fee and the chance to get some meaningful prize money, I'm guessing that he would have run the marathon over World XC.

actually craig virgin finished 2nd in boston in 1981, 3 weeks after he had won the 1981 world xc.

bill rodgers ran the first sub 2:10 by an american 3 weeks after his world xc 3rd place finish.

a couple of years ago shami of qatar was 8th in world xc championships then 2-3 weeks later won paris in 2:07:19 in unusually hot conditions.

if someone can run well in world xc, they can run a good marathon.