Why isn't Wheating training with Webb???

Race had not even entered my mind when I posed my question, Charlie. You're coming from left field. When I read what you wrote there is not a glimmer of recognition on my part, or insight on yours.

As for other posters: Yes, there are plenty of examples of people who've excelled in the middle distances on mileage similar to Wheating's. But it also seems to me that in order to maximize one's talents -- and there is plenty of incentive these days, financial and otherwise, to do so -- why not bump your mileage and give it a try? If fear of injuries is an issue, perhaps moderation is needed. If not... Here's a guy who's just getting started. I can't wait to see what he does. His 3:30 in Europe this summer looked like a walk in the park. He's a beautiful, awesome talent.

Excellent point. That HE feels he's only doing just enough to be as good as he is, is why I want to see the guy work harder!

altitude newbie wrote:

Jim Ryun often ran 100 mile weeks in high school and beyond

This is a lie.

Chris Wasnetsky wrote:

I remember reading in an article on Lagat that he rarely trains slower than 5:15 pace, even on his easy days. He's not jogging his 70mi weeks.

This is a lie.

radiostar wrote:

Um, ever hear of Nick Symmonds?

This is a lie.

Wheating ran 3:30 last year.

Why would he change anything?

Take the workouts he did last year and do them a little faster or do a little more. With the same coah and system.

How about this question:

Why isn't Webb training with Wheating?

Of course the answer is Webb has just adapted to a new coach and a new system and changing again would set him back.

Analyzing mileage is nearly useless.

People want to quantify training so they like to look at mileage as a measurement of training.

People that run 100 mpw have 5K times that range from 13 min to 17 min or slower and 13 minute 5K runners train anywhere from 60 mpw to 120 mpw.

Wheating's mileage is on the low side for a world class miler but pretty solid for an 800m runner where is also world class.

He seems to be making a gradual move up which is the way to do it.

still in school wrote:

isn't he still in school and living in the dorm ?

This is a lie.

toro wrote:

Wheating's mileage is on the low side for a world class miler but pretty solid for an 800m runner where is also world class.

This is a lie.

Coach D wrote:

You sound like a newbie that is listening to the wrong crowd (mediocre marathoners).

This is what Ryun said in his own words

We were running maybe 50 or 60 miles a week, and they were pretty high-quality miles. We would run a lot of repeat quarters. One of the workouts was 40 times a quarter mile; 10 miles total, and we’d average 69 seconds a quarter in blocks of 10.

http://running.competitor.com/2010/11/interviews/the-best-ever-exclusive-interview-with-jim-ryun_17818

[/quote]

Except that it is a commonly known fact that Ryun often ran 100 mile weeks in high school and is documented in several books including:

The Jim Ryun Story by Corder Nelson who wrote about him in high school and listed blocks of training he did in high school under coach Timmons

The Jim Ryun story by Jim Ryun himself

Sub 4:00 - Alan Webb and the quest for the fastest mile

and just to prove you wrong, lemme pull out my copy of Corder Nelson's book and post what it says :

June 1966

Sun., June 12: (pm) hour c-c.

Mon., June 13: (am) two miles c-c. two-miles fartlek, two-miles

c-c. (pm) warm-up; 1100 (2:32), jog 880, 880 (2:00.1), jog 880, 2 x 660

(1:27.5, 1:29.7) with 440 jog, jog 440, 3 x 440 (58.5, 57.4, 57.8) with 220

jog, jog 440, 4 x 330 (41.1, 40.3, 40.8, 42.0) with 110 walk; warm-down.

Tues., June 14: (am) six miles c-c. (pm) warm-up; 6 x 330 (42.0)

with 110 walk, jog 440, 6 x 220 (26. 0)

with 220 jog, jog 440, 6 x 150 with 150 jog, jog 440, 6 x 120 With 120

jog (grass); warm-down.

Wed., June 15: (am) two-miles c-c, 10 x 100 with,100 jog, 10 x 80

with 80 jog, 10 x 60 with 60 jog, two-

miles c-c. (pm) 16 miles c-c in 1:38:00.0.

Thurs., June 16: (am) six-miles c-c. (pm) warm-up; 880 (1:57),

hill run, 20 push-ups, jog 440, 660 (1:25), hill run, 30 sit-ups, jog 440,

440 (53. 0), hill run, 10 chin-ups, jog 440,330 (38. 0), hill.run, 30

squats, jog 440, 10 x 100 with 100 jog (grass), jog 440, 10 x 80 with 80

jog (grass); warm-down.

Fri., June 17: (am) mile c-c, 4 x 220 with 220 jog, 8 x 100 with

100 jog, 10 x 80 with 80 jog, mile. (pm) warm-up; 6 x 220 with 220 jog, jog

440, 6 x 150 with 150 jog, jog 440, 6 x 120 with 120 jog (grass), jog 440,

6 x 100 with 100 jog (grass), jog 440; warm-down.

Sat., June 18: (am) six-mile c-c. (pm) 10 miles c-c.

Total for week: 105.5 miles.

High School Training of Ryun

Cross Country [October 5 to October 11, 1963] 75 miles/week

======================================

Saturday (Oct 5) [16 miles]

AM 16 miles @ 6:08 pace (hills & rough terrain)

kicking in pool

Sunday (Oct 6) [5 miles]

PM 5 miles

Monday (Oct 7) [9.5 miles]

AM 3 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 mile jog

calisthetics

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

1x1 mile @ 4:23 pace

calisthetics

3x880 @ 2:45 average pace

cables

4x440 @ 69 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

warm down 1 mile jog

weights (barbells @ 33 lbs & dumbells @ 60 lbs)

Tuesday (Oct 8) [15.5 miles]

AM 4 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 mile jog

6x1500 (hills)

3 regular @ 4:59 average pace

3 reverse @ 5:04 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

warm down 1 mile jog

kicking in pool

Wednesday (Oct 9) [16 miles]

AM 4 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 miles jog

8x440 @ 71 average pace

1 mile jog

8x440 @ 70 average pace

1 mile jog

8x440 @ 70 average pace

1 mile jog

8x440 @ 68 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

weights

kicking in pool

Thurday (Oct 10) [9 miles]

AM 3 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 mile jog

10x220 @ 30 average pace

calisthetics

10x220 @ 30 average pace

cables

10x220 @ 33 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

warm down 1 mile jog

kicking in pool

Friday (Oct 11) [4 miles]

AM warm up 1 mile jog

PM CROSS COUNTRY MEET (2 miler)

warm down 1 mile jog

Base Work in Winter [February 20 to February 26, 1964] 106 miles/week

=============================================

February 20 [14.5 miles]

AM 5 miles - strides

PM 20x440

4.5 miles - strides

February 21 [17 miles]

AM 5 miles - strides

PM hill work - 6 times series

1. up 200 yard hill (steep)

2. stride 880 on top, controlled sprint down (gradual incline

down)

3. stride 440 flat

4. sprint 6x50 and 3x220 with strides between each

February 22 [15 miles]

AM 5 miles - strides

PM 5x2 miles (reverse route each time)

February 23 [12.5 miles]

AM 5 miles - strides

PM 10x880 (jog 440 between each)

February 24 [15 miles]

AM 5 miles

PM run golf course - 36 holes worth

February 25 [16 miles]

AM 6 miles

PM run golf course - 10 miles

February 26 [16 miles]

PM 16 miles on roads

Spring Training for Outdoor Track [March 29 to April 4, 1964] 79

miles/week

=============================================

Sunday (March 29) [10 miles]

PM 10 miles @ 6:30 pace

Monday (March 30) [16 miles]

AM 5 miles @ 6:24 pace

PM calisthetics

2 miles @ 4:57 pace

calisthetics

1x1 mile @ 5:19 pace

1x1 mile @ 5:10 pace

weights (dumbells @ 33 lbs)

1x880 @ 2:35 pace

1x880 @ 2:28 pace

1x880 @ 2:24 pace

weights (dumbells @ 70 lbs)

6x440 @ 65 average pace

weights (dumbells @ 33 lbs)

4 miles

Tuesday (March 31) [9 miles]

AM 6 miles

PM calisthetics

6x440 @ 64 average pace

1320 stride

10x140 @ 18 average pace

weights (dumbells @ 70 lbs)

5x3 minute drill

5x220 @ 31 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

Wednesday (April 1) [15.5 miles]

AM 3 miles - strides

PM calisthetics

10x440 @ 71 average pace

weights (dumbells @ 33 lbs)

10x440 @ 69 average pace

weights (dumbells @ 70 lbs)

10x440 @ 69 average pace

weights (dumbells @ 33 lbs)

10x440 @ 67 average pace

Thursday (April 2) [14.5 miles]

AM 4 miles - strides

PM calisthetics

warm up 1 mile jog

6x880 @ 2:52 average pace

calisthetics

6x880 @ 2:53 average pace

calisthetics

6x880 @ 2:44 average pace

warm down 1.5 miles jog

Friday (April 3) [11 miles]

AM 4 miles - strides

PM calisthetics

1x1 mile

1320 stride

1x880

1x660

1x440

3 miles

warm down 1 mile jog

weights

Saturday (April 4) [3 miles]

AM warm up 1 mile jog

PM WASHINGTON INVITATIONAL MEET (1 mile) ran 4:33.2

warm down 1 mile jog

IN CONCLUSION:

No shit Ryun wasn't logging 100+ miles during the peak racing of his season when he is doing crazy workouts but he DID run 100+ miles per week in high school quite often. He averaged 80-100 miles per week in preparation for his racing season, not this 50-60 bullshit that you took and posted out of context. Know what the hell you are talking about before you attack a post.

So ONE example from ONE week in 1964. I guess that means he ALWAYS did it. Who is taking things out of context here?

Good point.

Do you have any reading comprehension skills whatsoever? I said he averaged 80-100 miles per week in preparation for his racing season. You claimed (ignorantly) that he only ran 50-60 miles and never 100+ like I said and then proved. I posted MULTIPLE weeks of him running high mileage in high school. Nelson isn't going to write his entire frickin yearly schedule in a book, if he did you would have seen multiple 80-100+ mile weeks. Jim Ryun says this, jesus, you are retarded.

75 and 79 is not the same thing as 100.

And 80 is not the same thing as 100.

You said in your original post that he ran 100 mile weeks "often. . ." I'm saying you have shown nothing of the like to back that statement up.

Now you are saying "80-100," but only in base phase. . . Yet you only show three weeks as an example-- and TWO OF THEM were under 80. . . Doesn't really back up your original statement, now does it? But I'm sure you'll continue to backtrack.

He might have only run a handful of weeks over 100miles in his entire career. You really have no clue.

But hey. . .75 is close to 80. . . and 80 is close to 100. So it's all the same thing, right?

A bit presumptive. Take your beating like a man.

And I never said her NEVER ran 100, and ONLY ran 50-60. That was someone else. I'm just saying your original post was a lie. I suggest you go back and re-read how it all went down, Sir.

I guess Wheating should train with Jim Ryun since Jim Ryun has been strongly injected into this thread.

Its easy to lie with no facts wrote:

75 and 79 is not the same thing as 100.

And 80 is not the same thing as 100.

You said in your original post that he ran 100 mile weeks "often. . ." I'm saying you have shown nothing of the like to back that statement up.

Now you are saying "80-100," but only in base phase. . . Yet you only show three weeks as an example-- and TWO OF THEM were under 80. . . Doesn't really back up your original statement, now does it? But I'm sure you'll continue to backtrack.

He might have only run a handful of weeks over 100miles in his entire career. You really have no clue.

But hey. . .75 is close to 80. . . and 80 is close to 100. So it's all the same thing, right?

A bit presumptive. Take your beating like a man.

"Now you are saying "80-100," but only in base phase...Yet you only show three weeks as an example"

Sorry I thought you'd be smart enough to realize people don't run 100+ mile weeks into their peaking phase.

Did you read my last post, Nelson isn't going to write his entire yearly schedule. He gives EXAMPLES....it's what people do in books. He then goes into detail WRITING about his training in general...i.e. the 80-100 average

"He might have only run a handful of weeks over 100miles in his entire career. You really have no clue."

I do have a clue - I've read his autobiography and a biography about him as well as listened to numerous interviews.

"But hey. . .75 is close to 80. . . and 80 is close to 100. So it's all the same thing, right?"

Yes, he ran many 100+ mile weeks. That was my first statement. I then ELABORATED - not contradicted myself - by stating that - he commonly AVERAGED 80-100 miles per week in high school. Meaning some weeks below I.E. the 75 mile weeks, and some weeks above, I.E the 105 mile weeks.

Reading comprehension, try it.

I never understand this mentality. Unless you are the absolute best, why is being "as good as you are" acceptable? I thought running was about striving to be better than you are, not just "as good". Obviously Wheating is playing it safe as he has a lot of years ahead of him, but 55 miles a week is kind of a joke for someone who has been running for at least 5 or 6 years. I know it's different for him since he has money and a career on the line, but a lot of guys in college that are good as freshmen are afraid to run higher mileage because they want to just do what has been working. And then when they graduate you realize they either didn't improve at all or at least didn't reach their potential (and obviously the coaches are fine with low mileage as long as they're getting points). Why not take a risk and try to be as good as you can, especially if you're stopping after college?[/quote]

Tell you what. If your getting good results, continuing to improve, and getting close to record breaking, it makes no sense to change any of the variables radically, or would you disagree?

In this case Andrew W. could do lots more miles, train like any great person past or present, but then that would be a great risk, and for what purpose? To accelerate his improvement?

Does harder training, more volume, etc. always hold to accelerating one's progress or does it stand to reason that perhaps this could spoil a good progression in progress?

At the end of the day, the only thing that makes sense to me is do what works and continue to do what one knows to work. All the other stuff is conjecture and for practical purposes nonsense no matter how attractive it seems as an idea.

starmiler wrote:

I'm sure there's an answer for this. Is it because Webb's a 27:30-something 10K runner?

I was a little blown away to read this recent quote: "Wheating is still training with Lananna, and doing the same weekly mileage that he did in college — about 55-60 miles per week or what he calls “the bare minimum to be as good as I am.”

Is there some reason he train so lightly? Could Wheating one day be the Usain Bolt of middle-distance running, once he sets his sights higher?

I really don't know; I'm curious what people have to say about this.

They don't match up well at all in terms of their abilities. Webb has far superior leg speed with a .45 400 PR. Wheating's no where near that - maybe .49 400 PR at best. It would be overreaching to say the least for Wheating to take on workouts with Webb.

Tell you what. If your getting good results, continuing to improve, and getting close to record breaking, it makes no sense to change any of the variables radically, or would you disagree?

In this case Andrew W. could do lots more miles, train like any great person past or present, but then that would be a great risk, and for what purpose? To accelerate his improvement?

Does harder training, more volume, etc. always hold to accelerating one's progress or does it stand to reason that perhaps this could spoil a good progression in progress?

At the end of the day, the only thing that makes sense to me is do what works and continue to do what one knows to work. All the other stuff is conjecture and for practical purposes nonsense no matter how attractive it seems as an idea.[/quote]

I do consider Wheating to be an exception. he's young in his professional career and he's still running well and improving. if 4 years from now he's no better and still running 55MPW, I would be disappointed. But to answer your other question, I do believe that more volume (at 55MPW) almost always accelerates progress.

"I do consider Wheating to be an exception. he's young in his professional career and he's still running well and improving. if 4 years from now he's no better and still running 55MPW, I would be disappointed. But to answer your other question, I do believe that more volume (at 55MPW) almost always accelerates progress."

Wilfrado, don't let your bias sway your common sense. Every individual has his or her specific needs and it is the job of the athlete and coach to discover how to optimize the variables without exposing the athlete to unnecessary risk.

Like most posters here, you assume you can apply a generality to a specific case and assume that if that person is not abiding by that generality, they are making a mistake. This is so common, but still so wrong. Even great coaches are guilty of it. Perhaps it's an ego thing. I'm sure I'm guilty of it too.

Unless you have more information about A.W. than the coach( Vin),I believe you or anyone will have less likelihood of getting it right. Someone who spends years getting this knowledge through direct experience has a better chance of getting past the generalities and averages and make decisions that are specifically relevant.