I don't know what your "speed rating" is, but if you are comparing times you are wasting your time. NXN was a minute slower than usual this year.
I don't know what your "speed rating" is, but if you are comparing times you are wasting your time. NXN was a minute slower than usual this year.
Maye if we had a true HS national champs. But now we just have a cheap Chinese shoe faire with NXN. It's not a real champs. Just because Nike pays the coaches to blast B.S. on dyestat don't make it a champs. Someday we'll have an authentic HS champs I'm sure of because people want it badly.
So apparently XC teams didnt exist prior to 2004? I'd argue the 1999 Bingham, UT team and the early 1980a Irvine CA University High School team were pretty darn good.
The University HS of Irvine, California group of the early 1980's that is pointed to by most as the beacon by which all others must measure themselves. That Uni group was led by Polly Plumer, who still holds the U.S. Prep record in the mile at 4:35.24 (1982), with the squad still holding the High School Distance Medley Relay record of 11:43.53, with an 18:52.5 4x1500m that extrapolates out to quicker than the national 4x1600 record of 20:20.87. They set some team time records on the cross-country courses during that fabulous year of 1981-2, with a 92:25 on the Mt. SAC facility in Southern California (18:29 ave) that is the still-standing record there, despite the onslaught of a number of #1 ranked nationally squads since that time.
Bingham's performance at 1999 Great American was even better than anything Uni did having averaged 18:13 for 5k.
Speed ratings? lol.
Saratoga 2004 - sail that ship already!
Bingham 1999 - better than Saratoga 2004
Fayetteville Manlius - like a fine wine, they just keep getting better and 2010 was best all-time.
Marrow2000 wrote:
They are definitely the best girls team ever. NXN is much more competitive now than in 2004 and their winning score would win a dual meet.
I'm sure NXN is more competitive than in 2004, but 2010 NXN isn't nearly good as 2010 Footlocker, and certainly not Footlocker 2004. End thread.
harrier111 wrote:
coach wrote:Aris is a great coach. His is passionate about the sport and the kids buy into his philosophy. Why disparage the man and his program.
I agree. It seems like the accusations, posted above and elsewhere, are totally baseless. The only real difference that I have seen is what you said- his kids buying in.
Soooo, your saying it's a good thing that an adult male can get teenage girls to do anything for him by convincing them to buy into a philosophy.
xcrunner5 wrote:
So apparently XC teams didnt exist prior to 2004? I'd argue the 1999 Bingham, UT team and the early 1980a Irvine CA University High School team were pretty darn good.
The University HS of Irvine, California group of the early 1980's that is pointed to by most as the beacon by which all others must measure themselves. That Uni group was led by Polly Plumer, who still holds the U.S. Prep record in the mile at 4:35.24 (1982), with the squad still holding the High School Distance Medley Relay record of 11:43.53, with an 18:52.5 4x1500m that extrapolates out to quicker than the national 4x1600 record of 20:20.87. They set some team time records on the cross-country courses during that fabulous year of 1981-2, with a 92:25 on the Mt. SAC facility in Southern California (18:29 ave) that is the still-standing record there, despite the onslaught of a number of #1 ranked nationally squads since that time.
Bingham's performance at 1999 Great American was even better than anything Uni did having averaged 18:13 for 5k.
While it's great not to overlook the past, I'm not sure where you're pulling these records from.
T&FN lists the 4 x mile record as 18:59 by Saratoga in 2005. That is faster than Irvine's 4 x 1500 record.
The Mt. Sac girls team time course record is 88:18 by Saugus. Even with a 30-second "old" to "new" course conversion (and no one thinks it's that high) Irvine doesn't come close.
I don't know what the fastest 5K team average FM or Saratoga has run, but Saugus averaged 17:53 at Woodward this year - and then were destroyed by FM at NXN.
League Meet, from Tullyrunners (5k).
1 Jillian Fanning SO 1 17:04.8 5:30 158.4
2 Christie Rutledge JR 1 17:07.9 5:31 157.4
3 Heather Martin JR 2 17:48.8 5:44 143.7
4 Courtney Chapman SR 1 18:00.5 5:48 139.8
6 Maggie Malone FR 2 18:48.1 6:04 124.0
17:45 average. This is with resting their eventual 2nd girl from NXN Sischo. Put her in at 5th with Chapman just to be conservative and their average lowers to 17:36. Put he in at 2nd, it lowers to 17:24. Also 17:04 and 17:07 were within 1:30 of top guy for day.
Course at Jamesville Beach is tiring and muddy.
Hayduke wrote:
Soooo, your saying it's a good thing that an adult male can get teenage girls to do anything for him by convincing them to buy into a philosophy.
They buy into the program, but you can't run that without loving what you do. I'm going to say that the FM girls enjoy running ADDED to the great coaching. The coaches do not make them do anything. Not to take away from the thread's point.
Saratoga 2004 girls was just so solid. Better than FM 2010.
xcrunner5 wrote:
So apparently XC teams didnt exist prior to 2004? I'd argue the 1999 Bingham, UT team and the early 1980a Irvine CA University High School team were pretty darn good.
The University HS of Irvine, California group of the early 1980's that is pointed to by most as the beacon by which all others must measure themselves. That Uni group was led by Polly Plumer, who still holds the U.S. Prep record in the mile at 4:35.24 (1982), with the squad still holding the High School Distance Medley Relay record of 11:43.53, with an 18:52.5 4x1500m that extrapolates out to quicker than the national 4x1600 record of 20:20.87. They set some team time records on the cross-country courses during that fabulous year of 1981-2, with a 92:25 on the Mt. SAC facility in Southern California (18:29 ave) that is the still-standing record there, despite the onslaught of a number of #1 ranked nationally squads since that time.
Bingham's performance at 1999 Great American was even better than anything Uni did having averaged 18:13 for 5k.
Gotta wake up and start watching the sport again. Those records are old. The DMR time has been blown out of the water...not even in the top 10 anymore.
My vote still goes to Saratoga '04 over FM.
Hayduke wrote:
Soooo, your saying it's a good thing that an adult male can get teenage girls to do anything for him by convincing them to buy into a philosophy.
That is not what I said.
I was clearly talking about Aris' ability to have his teams buy into his RUNNING AND TRAINING philosophy. You got the whole "convince teenage girls to do anything" line from your perverted little mind.
And, yes, it is a GREAT thing that he can convince kids to buy into his running philosophy. When you boil down his philosophy, it is basically a commitment to excellence and a commitment to one another. Any coach in any sport on any level either strives for that commitment or should be fired. Is there something else you would rather have impressionable teenagers committed to besides excellence and selflessness!?
pervert jokes aside, I do think that specialization (especially in sport) at that age creates well rounded adults.
Fayetteville definitely has the manliust high school team ever
Speed ratings are relative values comparing one time to another, factoring in differences in course, weather, competition, etc. For a more detailed explanation of the statistical baseline method used to produce the numbers, go here --> http://tullyrunners.com/Articles/NXN_SpeedRatingImportance.htm
This question is a very interesting one. The Saratoga 2004 team existed in a time when footlocker meant something very different than it does today. The phrase "footlocker finalist" was the ultimate distinction in HS distance running...and making the finals was the all-important measuring stick for any elite high school runner. Toga putting 4 girls in the top 6 at FLNE was something truly mind-boggling and unprecedented. Because it had never been done before, and because 2004 marked the beginning of the rise of NTN/NXN and consequently the slow demise of footlocker, the saratoga 2004 team will always exist in the high school xc record books as an anomaly. The footlocker that existed from the 70's to the early 2000's isn't dying...it's already dead. Even if fayetteville manlius decided to see how many girls they could qualify for FLN, it just wouldn't mean the same thing today, because footlocker doesn't mean the same thing...the saratoga 2004 team shocked running fans using a measuring stick that just doesn't exist anymore. I think that is why many people will never see any other team as better than them.
fghrunner wrote:
This question is a very interesting one. The Saratoga 2004 team existed in a time when footlocker meant something very different than it does today. The phrase "footlocker finalist" was the ultimate distinction in HS distance running...and making the finals was the all-important measuring stick for any elite high school runner. Toga putting 4 girls in the top 6 at FLNE was something truly mind-boggling and unprecedented. Because it had never been done before, and because 2004 marked the beginning of the rise of NTN/NXN and consequently the slow demise of footlocker, the saratoga 2004 team will always exist in the high school xc record books as an anomaly. The footlocker that existed from the 70's to the early 2000's isn't dying...it's already dead. Even if fayetteville manlius decided to see how many girls they could qualify for FLN, it just wouldn't mean the same thing today, because footlocker doesn't mean the same thing...the saratoga 2004 team shocked running fans using a measuring stick that just doesn't exist anymore. I think that is why many people will never see any other team as better than them.
Very well said. Combine this point the speed ratings comparison (far from perfect, but the best comparison tool out there) noted earlier, and I'm convinced Toga 04 is still the best ever.
BTW - a quick merge of speed ratings from NXN NY, NXN NE, and Footlocker NE suggests that had everyone run at footlocker (like the good old days), FM 2010 would have two girls qualify, with a third in striking distance but missing out.
i'd have to say any of the JV boys teams who could annihilate them would be better
I have made this point in previous threads but here are the reasons that I believe FM 2010 is a better "team" than Toga 2004. Keep in mind, I am not a Toga hater and I think that this debate is fun, either way they are two of the best teams ever.
The first reason I feel FM is better is that Toga 04 was a team of transfers, made possible by the split up of the Argyle XC team. Without Caitlin Lane and Hannah Davidson there is no argument. I understand that FM also was aided this year by the addition of Katie Brislin, but Lane and Davidson were simply on another level than Brislin. The Toga team has always seemed to me to be a team composed of many high level individuals.
Which brings me to my second point, FM is much better in XC than they are on the track. They are a team that focuses on XC, but Toga's individuals had great success as individuals at the track national level.
The third and final reason are girls like FM's #1 Christie Rutledge. Her story has been posted all over because she went from the JV team to Varsity. Every year FM has a girl who buys into the system and goes from being pretty good to national level good. Obviously, Toga develops girls internally as well but it seems to me that usually the Toga girls present themselves as having a great deal of talent in 7th or 8th grade.
Both teams are/were amazing and deserve to be remembered. But if I had to vote I'd choose the FM 2010 girls. It's scary to think that next year they might be even better.
fm supporter wrote:
I have made this point in previous threads but here are the reasons that I believe FM 2010 is a better "team" than Toga 2004. Keep in mind, I am not a Toga hater and I think that this debate is fun, either way they are two of the best teams ever.
The first reason I feel FM is better is that Toga 04 was a team of transfers, made possible by the split up of the Argyle XC team. Without Caitlin Lane and Hannah Davidson there is no argument. I understand that FM also was aided this year by the addition of Katie Brislin, but Lane and Davidson were simply on another level than Brislin. The Toga team has always seemed to me to be a team composed of many high level individuals.
Which brings me to my second point, FM is much better in XC than they are on the track. They are a team that focuses on XC, but Toga's individuals had great success as individuals at the track national level.
The third and final reason are girls like FM's #1 Christie Rutledge. Her story has been posted all over because she went from the JV team to Varsity. Every year FM has a girl who buys into the system and goes from being pretty good to national level good. Obviously, Toga develops girls internally as well but it seems to me that usually the Toga girls present themselves as having a great deal of talent in 7th or 8th grade.
Both teams are/were amazing and deserve to be remembered. But if I had to vote I'd choose the FM 2010 girls. It's scary to think that next year they might be even better.
Those are all good reasons why you prefer FM over Saratoga, but it doesn't address which team was better. I don't think this FM team could've handled that '04 'Toga team. I'm neither a Saratoga nor an FM hater or supporter, just trying to be objective based on what they actually did on the trails.
I think FM is a much better, stronger team than Saratoga '04. Probably the biggest reason is: NXN now is even more competitive than it was just six years ago, yet FM blew everyone away by posting a ridiculously low winning score.
That says a LOT.