Anyone wanna tackle men's decathlon?
Schenk and Voss were both part of GDR doping program so eliminate those.
Anyone wanna tackle men's decathlon?
Schenk and Voss were both part of GDR doping program so eliminate those.
So El G, KB, Geb, etc. were taking PEDs when setting their WRs? What's the basis for this speculation?
Proof wrote:
So El G, KB, Geb, etc. were taking PEDs when setting their WRs? What's the basis for this speculation?
Usually people site the huge rise in fast times around the late 90s that disappeared just as suddenly as they started when the test for EPO came out. Obviously its harder to tag Geb's half marathon/marathon stuff and Bekele's stuff post EPO testing.
The EPO test was first used at the end of 2000, but there were many criticisms at the time that it was far from reliable. There were several "false positives" and it didn't pick up on those taking it at the time who were later caught. E.g Marion Jones and Rashis Ramzi. He was definitely on them in 2005 when he came from nowhere, made huge pbs and did the World double, and 2006 when he ran a 3:29 off a 52.4 first 400m! Yet he didn't get caught until 2008.
While I'm sure a lot of people stopped with the EPO in 2000, I'm equally sure a lot of athletes continued to use and get away with it;. I think after Ramzi was caught a lot of athletes probably did stop, as they knew it was too risky and the testers had caught up with them, albeit for how long!?
I'd say the reason why the times in the 1500 - 5000 haven't been that special in the last 2 or 3 seasons is a direct result of that. 3:29 is now a world leading mark again.
Off the top of my head, I can think of three under 9.85 without PEDs: M. Greene, D. Baily, B. Surin
What's the point of taking EPO if you live at altitude like Geb and the other Ethiopians/Kenyans?
M.C. Confusing wrote:
And willingly testing yourself means nothing except that you are sure you will pass...look at Marion Jones, not only was she willingly tested, but she even willingly took a lie detector test too, which she also passed....while she was actually juicing.
Marion Jones never volunteered for extra tests, or having their blood and urine stored to create a biological passport to make it easier for testers to detect chemical changes in their samples the way Gay, Clay and Felix have. Jones took the tests she was required to and nothing more, and that was before samples were being stored for later testing. Ramzi knows all about that system now.
epopians wrote:
I'd say the reason why the times in the 1500 - 5000 haven't been that special in the last 2 or 3 seasons is a direct result of that. 3:29 is now a world leading mark again.
Only six men in the history of the world have ever gone under 3:29 and you're citing the fact that "3:29 is a world lead again" as evidence that endurance athletes have gone off drugs? That's like saying, "not many people break 1:42 anymore" when only three men ever have!
All you need to do to know that there has been no drop off in endurance capabilities is to see how the men's half marathon and marathon all-time lists have been completely rewritten in the last few years. In an era of random tests at any given hour and blood and urine samples stored for years for later testing, more people have broken 60:00 for the half and 2:07 and 2:06 for the marathon than ever before.
If you're going to use average performances over time as evidence of PED use/non-use, you have to account for the quality and quantity of participants over time as well. This varies by distance and depends on prize money offered.
old man peabody wrote:
epopians wrote:I'd say the reason why the times in the 1500 - 5000 haven't been that special in the last 2 or 3 seasons is a direct result of that. 3:29 is now a world leading mark again.
Only six men in the history of the world have ever gone under 3:29 and you're citing the fact that "3:29 is a world lead again" as evidence that endurance athletes have gone off drugs? That's like saying, "not many people break 1:42 anymore" when only three men ever have!
All you need to do to know that there has been no drop off in endurance capabilities is to see how the men's half marathon and marathon all-time lists have been completely rewritten in the last few years. In an era of random tests at any given hour and blood and urine samples stored for years for later testing, more people have broken 60:00 for the half and 2:07 and 2:06 for the marathon than ever before.
When the world record for 1500m comes down by 3.5 secs in the space of about 6 years in the 90's; when it had taken 25 years for it to drop by the same amount previously (and some of that was due to the change from cinders to synthetic during that period); and when the 3000m was improved by about 8 secs in the same period in the 90's, then I'd say YES, it is quite overwhelming evidence. Backed up by many sub 3:30 performances at that time compared to before or after. There are, of course, random jump forwards in terms of WR progression in all events, but they seldom all happen at the same time, unless due to things like the development of synthetic surfaces. But the rate of improvement in the 1500, Mile, 2000, 3000, 5k and 10k were quite staggering and way beyond progression predicted in terms of historical trends. And don't give me theis emergence of free running African rubbish! There had been excellent Kenyans and Ethiopians for decades before this mid 90's renaissance. There had been a lot of money to be made for these guys since the mid 80's, so why wait for 10 years for everyone to make these huge drops in time?
Are Baala, Cacho & Komen really worth 2 secs faster than Ovett? Is it normal that a runner who can't break 1:46 for 800m can run 3:26 for 1500, or run a last 800m in 1:47 at the end of a 1500? Was Komen really that much more naturally talented he could beat Aouita over 3k by about 60m?
I don't think so.
As for EL G,... where are all these great Morrocan runners that their specialist training regimes/centres were churning out 10 - 15 years ago? Many of them were either caught using or disappeared very quickly. Everyone is happy to dismiss GDR and Soviet athletes for their spectacular superiority in some events, because subsequently many have been tarnished by failing drug tests. Yet the same concerns are rarely voiced over the Moroccans.
As for the half Marathon and Marathon times continuing to fall, that is due more to the fact that the popularity of such events and the money to be made from it has exploded in the last 5 years. Before, most international distance runners were more concerned with the 10k on the track.
With regards to taking and storing of random samples for years, that only began in 2008 at the Beijing Olympics. That's going to have NO bearing whatsoever on anyone who cheated before this time. Ramzi's case also points out that if he got away with it previously, then there's no reason to suppose that athletes aren't still getting away with it now. Perhaps Ramzi tried his luck and took it too close to the final.
Nutella1 wrote:
What's the point of taking EPO if you live at altitude like Geb and the other Ethiopians/Kenyans?
That seems rather obvious. If a non-detectable drug comes on the scene, and you know that your "sea level" European (or anywhere) rivals are taking it and turning them from a 3:32 athlete to a 3:28 one, then you're going to redress the balance and birth advantage by partaking of it too! Thus a 3:29/3:30 athlete becomes a 3:26 one.
I think all of us should agree on someone that was 99.99% clean (can't say 100% about anyone) and then look at that athlete and determine how much better an athlete could be. For example, if Coe ran 1:41.73 back in 1981 then I don't think that it's implausible that a fast Kenyan (Kipketer) could drop it down to 1:41.11 clean. Now, if we identify that athlete in the 5k at 12:58 then someone running 12:30 five years later (or whatever) may be worth some strict debate.
Dean, you think too much. You're paranoid. Athletes can and will go faster and faster with or without drugs. You can't get your head around this because you don't understand the training or the mindset of the most determined runners.
epopians wrote:
Was Komen really that much more naturally talented he could beat Aouita over 3k by about 60m?
Whoa, please don't tell me you are citing this as part of your argument? That's comical.
epopians wrote:
When the world record for 1500m comes down by 3.5 secs in the space of about 6 years in the 90's; when it had taken 25 years for it to drop by the same amount previously (and some of that was due to the change from cinders to synthetic during that period); and when the 3000m was improved by about 8 secs in the same period in the 90's, then I'd say YES, it is quite overwhelming evidence. Backed up by many sub 3:30 performances at that time compared to before or after. There are, of course, random jump forwards in terms of WR progression in all events, but they seldom all happen at the same time, unless due to things like the development of synthetic surfaces. But the rate of improvement in the 1500, Mile, 2000, 3000, 5k and 10k were quite staggering and way beyond progression predicted in terms of historical trends. And don't give me theis emergence of free running African rubbish! There had been excellent Kenyans and Ethiopians for decades before this mid 90's renaissance. There had been a lot of money to be made for these guys since the mid 80's, so why wait for 10 years for everyone to make these huge drops in time?
Are Baala, Cacho & Komen really worth 2 secs faster than Ovett? Is it normal that a runner who can't break 1:46 for 800m can run 3:26 for 1500, or run a last 800m in 1:47 at the end of a 1500? Was Komen really that much more naturally talented he could beat Aouita over 3k by about 60m?
I don't think so.
As for EL G,... where are all these great Morrocan runners that their specialist training regimes/centres were churning out 10 - 15 years ago? Many of them were either caught using or disappeared very quickly. Everyone is happy to dismiss GDR and Soviet athletes for their spectacular superiority in some events, because subsequently many have been tarnished by failing drug tests. Yet the same concerns are rarely voiced over the Moroccans.
As for the half Marathon and Marathon times continuing to fall, that is due more to the fact that the popularity of such events and the money to be made from it has exploded in the last 5 years. Before, most international distance runners were more concerned with the 10k on the track.
With regards to taking and storing of random samples for years, that only began in 2008 at the Beijing Olympics. That's going to have NO bearing whatsoever on anyone who cheated before this time. Ramzi's case also points out that if he got away with it previously, then there's no reason to suppose that athletes aren't still getting away with it now. Perhaps Ramzi tried his luck and took it too close to the final.
When the world record for 800m fell 1.7 seconds in the two years from 1979 to 1981, while it had taken 22 years to fall the same amount. What do you say to that? Or how Steve Cram ran 1:42.88 but never broke 48.00 for 400m in his life?
You go on about a slew of guys breaking 3:30 in the 1990s as if it were a walk in the park, when only 18 men have ever done it. Of those 18, at least two are absolute drug cheats, and three more ran their best times in the 1980s. In fact, of all the non-certain drug cheats (and I am giving wide latitude to some) only seven men broke 3:30 in the 1990s. Compare that with 2005 when 17 different men broke 13 minutes. And that happened mostly because Rome and Paris had deep fields and fast pacing. If it had rained that day in Saint-Dennis, perhaps nobody would have broken 13 minutes and then I wouldn't be able to site 2005 as a banner year.
"Are Baala, Cacho & Komen really worth 2 secs faster than Ovett?"
Is Seb Coe really 2.5sec faster than Snell? Is he really almost 2sec faster than El Caballo? Is Steve Ovett really worth 4 seconds faster than Kip Keino?
Just mathematically speaking, the more time passes the more likely you are to encounter outliers with extreme talent. David Moorcroft went from 13:20 to 13:00.41 in a single race after battling back from injuries and you're telling me that's the absolute standard? Steve Cram ran 3:29 while losing centimeters on every step because he toed out. Jim Ryun started running track because he didn't make the baseball team. You have to understand how much phenomenal talent is out there.
"With regards to taking and storing of random samples for years, that only began in 2008 at the Beijing Olympics. That's going to have NO bearing whatsoever on anyone who cheated before this time."
And yet they just had one of the deepest 5000m races in history in Oslo earlier this month.
" And don't give me theis emergence of free running African rubbish! There had been excellent Kenyans and Ethiopians for decades before this mid 90's renaissance. There had been a lot of money to be made for these guys since the mid 80's, so why wait for 10 years for everyone to make these huge drops in time?"
I recommend you read up on the history of Africa. This is what you're saying: "don't give me reasonable explanations -- I've already made up my mind." You discount the fact that shoe contracts in significant amounts weren't widely available to Africans until the 1990s. Nike wasn't offering Peter Rono a $300,000 contract in 1988. Brother O'Connell started coaching in Kenya at the end of the 1970s and it was at the 1988 Olympics where Kenyan men started to assert dominance, winning the 800m, 1500m, steeplechase and 5000m.
You minimize the effect of Olympic boycotts by Kenya (1976 and 1980) and Ethiopia (1976, 1984, 1988), and you totally dismiss the effects of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–1985_famine_in_Ethiopia
killed hundreds of thousands, impoverished millions more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_%28Ethiopia%29The government killed 500,000 of its own people
Here's an insightful passage on the Derg:
"However, mismanagement, corruption, and general hostility to the Derg's violent rule, coupled with the draining effects of constant warfare with the separatist guerrilla movements in Eritrea and Tigray, led to a drastic fall in general productivity of food and cash crops. In October 1978, the Derg announced the National Revolutionary Development Campaign to mobilize human and material resources to transform the economy, which led to a Ten Year Plan (1984/85-1993/94) to expand agricultural and industrial output, forecasting a 6.5% growth in GDP and a 3.6% rise in per capita income; instead, per capita income declined 0.8% over this period.[7] Famine scholar Alex de Waal observes that while the famine that struck the country in the mid-1980s is usually ascribed to drought, "closer investigation shows that widespread drought occurred only some months after the famine was already under way."[8] Hundreds of thousands fled economic misery, conscription, and political repression, and went to live in neighboring countries and all over the Western world, creating an Ethiopian diaspora for the first time."
On the women's 800m list...I think I spotted somebody down there (MM in '76) that may have actually been clean!!!
All-time women's best 800m
29 1:55.54 Ellen van Langen NED 09.02.66 1 Barcelona 03.08.1992
60 1:56.04 Janeth Jepkosgei Busienei KEN 13.02.83 1 Osaka 28.08.2007
63 1:56.07 Janeth Jepkosgei Busienei KEN 13.02.83 2 Beijing 18.08.2008
75 1:56.17 Janeth Jepkosgei Busienei KEN 13.02.83 1s3 Osaka 26.08.2007
80 1:56.21 Kelly Holmes GBR 19.04.70 2 Monaco 09.09.1995
92 1:56.29 Ana Fidelia Quirot CUB 23.03.63 2 Monaco 10.08.1996
92 1:56.29 Janeth Jepkosgei Busienei KEN 13.02.83 1rA Rieti 09.09.2007
100 1:56.38 Kelly Holmes GBR 19.04.70 1 Athínai 23.08.2004
115 1:56.53 Patricia Djaté FRA 03.01.71 3 Monaco 09.09.1995
148 1:56.66 Ellen van Langen NED 09.02.66 1 Hengelo 28.06.1992
148 1:56.66 Janeth Jepkosgei Busienei KEN 13.02.83 1rA Lausanne 11.07.2006
152 1:56.68 Letitia Vriesde SUR 05.10.64 2 Göteborg 13.08.1995
171 1:56.80 Kelly Holmes GBR 19.04.70 3 Sydney 25.09.2000
193 1:56.91 Kim Gallagher USA 11.06.64 3 Seoul 26.09.1988
196 1:56.92 Ellen van Langen NED 09.02.66 1 Hechtel 18.07.1992
204 1:56.95 Kelly Holmes GBR 19.04.70 3 Göteborg 13.08.1995
226 1:57.04 Patricia Djaté FRA 03.01.71 4 Göteborg 13.08.1995
226 1:57.04 Meredith Valmon USA 15.10.68 1 Atlanta 17.06.1996
232 1:57.07 Letitia Vriesde SUR 05.10.64 3rA Zürich 16.08.1995
232 1:57.07 Janeth Jepkosgei Busienei KEN 13.02.83 1 Rieti 27.08.2006
353 1:57.42 Kirsty Wade GBR 06.08.62 2 Belfast 24.06.1985
376 1:57.48 Kirsty Wade GBR 06.08.62 4 Moskva 17.08.1985
523 1:57.80 Delisa Walton-Floyd USA 28.07.61 5 Seoul 26.09.1988
523 1:57.80 Maryam Yusuf Jamal BRN 16.09.84 2 Zürich 29.08.2008
535 1:57.82 Julie Jenkins USA 12.08.64 4r2 Zürich 15.08.1990
543 1:57.84 Joetta Clark-Diggs USA 01.08.62 3 Monaco 08.08.1998
543 1:57.84 Maggie Vessey USA 23.12.81 1 Monaco 28.07.2009
563 1:57.88 Kenia Sinclair JAM 14.07.80 2 Rethimnó 21.07.2006
573 1:57.9 Madeline Jackson USA 11.01.48 3 College Park 07.08.1976
599 1:57.93 Jennifer Meadows GBR 17.04.81 3 Berlin 19.08.2009
621 1:57.97 Nicole Teter USA 08.11.73 2rA Lausanne 02.07.2002
636 1:57.99 Hazel Clark USA 03.10.77 4rA Oslo 29.07.2005
removed probable men/hermaphrodites and several with drug use or generic profiles falling within big drug user groups. probably unfair but I'd guess many of these were clean. Don't know about Van Langen.
All-time women's best 3000 m
+=intermediate time in 5000m race
9 8:21.64 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 London 15.07.1994
12 8:22.20 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 2 Monaco 19.07.2002
15 8:23.23 Edith Masai KEN 04.04.67 3 Monaco 19.07.2002
21 8:24.66 Meseret Defar ETH 19.11.83 1 Stockholm 25.07.2006
22 8:24.81+ Meseret Defar ETH 19.11.83 1 Bruxelles 14.09.2007
27 8:25.62 Berhane Adere ETH 21.07.73 3 Zürich 17.08.2001
30 8:25.92 Gelete Burka ETH 15.02.86 2 Stockholm 25.07.2006
31 8:26.14 Berhane Adere ETH 21.07.73 1 Bruxelles 30.08.2002
40 8:26.97 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 5 Roma 29.06.2001
45 8:27.17 Edith Masai KEN 04.04.67 3 Stockholm 25.07.2006
49 8:27.24 Meseret Defar ETH 19.11.83 1 Stuttgart 23.09.2007
51 8:27.40 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 3 Zürich 11.08.1999
52 8:27.57 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Zürich 16.08.1995
53 8:27.58 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 2 Zürich 11.08.2000
54 8:27.62 Getenesh Wami ETH 11.12.74 4 Zürich 17.08.2001
59 8:28.07 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 5 Zürich 17.08.2001
62 8:28.66 Vivian Cheruiyot KEN 11.09.83 2 Stuttgart 23.09.2007
66 8:28.74 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Oslo 10.07.1993
67 8:28.80 Marta Domínguez ESP 03.11.75 3 Zürich 11.08.2000
68 8:28.82 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 2 Nice 16.07.1998
69 8:28.83 Zola Pieterse GBR 26.05.66 3 Roma 07.09.1985
70 8:28.85 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 4 Zürich 11.08.2000
71 8:28.87 Maryam Yusuf Jamal BRN 16.09.84 1 Oslo 29.07.2005
72 8:29.02 Yvonne Murray GBR 04.10.64 3 Seoul 25.09.1988
73 8:29.06 Priscilla Cherono KEN 26.06.80 3 Stuttgart 23.09.2007
74 8:29.14 Lydia Cheromei KEN 11.05.77 5 Zürich 11.08.2000
75 8:29.24 Getenesh Wami ETH 11.12.74 3 Paris 29.07.1998
79 8:29.45 Maryam Yusuf Jamal BRN 16.09.84 1 Zürich 19.08.2005
81 8:29.55 Tirunesh Dibaba ETH 01.06.85 1 London 28.07.2006
83 8:29.60 Yvonne Murray GBR 04.10.64 2 London 15.07.1994
86 8:29.72 Getenesh Wami ETH 11.12.74 3 Roma 07.07.1999
87 8:29.83 Getenesh Wami ETH 11.12.74 3 Oslo 30.06.1999
91 8:30.12 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Zürich 04.08.1993
92 8:30.15 Meseret Defar ETH 19.11.83 1 Thessaloníki 13.09.2009
94 8:30.22 Carla Sacramento POR 10.12.71 2 Monaco 04.08.1999
95 8:30.25 Vivian Cheruiyot KEN 11.09.83 1 Rieti 09.09.2007
97 8:30.30 Yvonne Murray GBR 04.10.64 2 Oslo 10.07.1993
104 8:30.61 Vivian Cheruiyot KEN 11.09.83 2 Thessaloníki 13.09.2009
106 8:30.66 Fernanda Ribeiro POR 23.06.69 3 Monaco 04.08.1999
107 8:30.70 Priscilla Cherono KEN 26.06.80 2 Rieti 09.09.2007
108 8:30.80 Lydia Cheromei KEN 11.05.77 1 Monaco 18.08.2000
109 8:30.86 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Bruxelles 03.09.1993
110 8:30.93 Ayalew Yimer Wude ETH 04.07.87 3 Thessaloníki 13.09.2009
111 8:30.95 Tegla Loroupe KEN 09.05.73 2 Monaco 18.08.2000
112 8:31.27 Joanne Pavey GBR 20.09.73 4 Bruxelles 30.08.2002
112 8:31.27 Edith Masai KEN 04.04.67 1 Saint-Denis 01.07.2005
114 8:31.32 Isabella Ochichi KEN 28.10.79 1 Saint-Denis 23.07.2004
115 8:31.40 Getenesh Wami ETH 11.12.74 3 Bruxelles 24.08.2001
116 8:31.42 Isabella Ochichi KEN 28.10.79 2 Oslo 29.07.2005
117 8:31.45 Berhane Adere ETH 21.07.73 4 Bruxelles 24.08.2001
118 8:31.61 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 4 Roma 07.07.1999
122 8:31.75 Grete Waitz NOR 01.10.53 1 Oslo 17.07.1979
123 8:31.76 Edith Masai KEN 04.04.67 6 Zürich 17.08.2001
124 8:31.84 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Helsinki 10.08.1994
126 8:31.89 Berhane Adere ETH 21.07.73 2 Zürich 19.08.2005
128 8:31.94 Elvan Abeylegesse TUR 11.09.82 6 Bruxelles 30.08.2002
130 8:32.00 Elana Meyer RSA 10.10.66 1 Durban 29.04.1991 (eventually tested positive for caffeine, but will not treat that seriously)
132 8:32.02 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17.12.73 6 Bruxelles 24.08.2001
134 8:32.1 Grete Waitz NOR 01.10.53 1 Oslo 27.06.1978
135 8:32.17 Angela Chalmers CAN 06.09.63 1 Victoria 23.08.1994
137 8:32.31 Berhane Adere ETH 21.07.73 2 Saint-Denis 05.07.2002
138 8:32.43 Yvonne Murray GBR 04.10.64 2 Bruxelles 03.09.1993
139 8:32.45 Carla Sacramento POR 10.12.71 3 Bruxelles 03.09.1999
140 8:32.62 Yvonne Murray GBR 04.10.64 1 London 23.07.1993
142 8:32.76 Berhane Adere ETH 21.07.73 1 Zürich 16.08.2002
143 8:32.80 Ayelech Worku ETH 12.06.79 7 Bruxelles 30.08.2002
144 8:32.81 Elana Meyer RSA 10.10.66 3 Oslo 10.07.1993
148 8:33.00 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Gateshead 28.08.2000
152 8:33.12 Tegla Loroupe KEN 09.05.73 7 Zürich 11.08.2000
154 8:33.17 Berhane Adere ETH 21.07.73 2 London 28.07.2006
157 8:33.36 Tegla Loroupe KEN 09.05.73 5 Monaco 04.08.1999
158 8:33.38 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 4 Stuttgart 16.08.1993
159 8:33.40 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Hengelo 20.06.1993
162 8:33.53 Lydia Cheromei KEN 11.05.77 2 Athínai 28.06.2000
165 8:33.57 Meseret Defar ETH 19.11.83 1 New York City 11.06.2005
167 8:33.59 Isabella Ochichi KEN 28.10.79 2 Saint-Denis 01.07.2005
168 8:33.62 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 3 Zürich 16.08.2002
169 8:33.66 Vivian Cheruiyot KEN 11.09.83 1 Gateshead 31.08.2008
171 8:33.78 Tirunesh Dibaba ETH 01.06.85 1 Athínai 16.09.2006
173 8:33.79 Joanne Pavey GBR 20.09.73 3 Oslo 29.07.2005
174 8:33.83 Edith Masai KEN 04.04.67 4 Zürich 16.08.2002
175 8:33.84 Getenesh Wami ETH 11.12.74 3 Nice 16.07.1998
179 8:33.94 Edith Masai KEN 04.04.67 3 Saint-Denis 05.07.2002
181 8:33.97 Elly van Hulst NED 09.06.59 1 Zürich 17.08.1988
187 8:34.10 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21.03.56 1 Zürich 13.08.1986
189 8:34.22 Meseret Defar ETH 19.11.83 1 Stuttgart 10.09.2006
191 8:34.31 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28.11.69 1 Oslo 21.07.1995
192 8:34.33 Grete Waitz NOR 01.10.53 3 Praha 29.08.1978
194 8:34.43 Zola Pieterse GBR 26.05.66 1 Belfast 30.06.1986
eight oh six, are you kidding me? Wanted to include Mary Decker/Tabb/Slaney as she had more talent than anyone to that time, but the husband shot putter/druggie Slaney and the late drug positive eliminate that. I don't trust the Radcliffe results because her marathon record is so far out of balance with the rest of the world records, but I give her the benefit of the doubt.
I don't think anyone thinks Mutola is dirty - I mean she had a tremendously long and consistent career. A little manly maybe but I dont see doping!
RE: Slaney - do you think she was clean in her prime? If so, you might wanna add those marks!
My source said Van Langen was almost certainly EPO aided and Quirot almost certainly yes. She was a 400m/800m combo athlete at the peak of the doping era, from a country where I have no doubt it was government sanctioned. SO I'd be very surprised if she were clean.