It is much dirtier.
I am friends with elite cyclists and elite runners.
The cyclists talk about doping like we talk about running shoes.
They all say the same thing ..." on the pro level, everybody's dirty..or you are dropped.."
In T&F it's primarily the sprinters.
How much are these badass bikers making if they are spending $30-$90K per year on drugs?
Steroids help with endurance activities. They can help reduce recovery times so you can do 5 workouts a week instead of 4 and you don't break down. You think over a 6 month period being able to do more work doesn't help them? And in cycling it isn't steroids that are the bigger in general. It is the EPO (just like running) and the like and are the real performance boosters. Now I don't know if EPO is any better than the old blood boosting of the Viren (ok that is a bit of cheap shot but I can't spell the east germans name) era, but to think that it doesn't help is nuts.
Ryan Foreman wrote:
I don't think steroids would help distance runners as much as cyclists. Isn't steroids more about developing muscle mass for explosive type of physical activities? i.e. home run swings, 100M dash, weight lifting. Cycling is an endurance sport but it demands a lot of explosive type activity.
Even with the importance of finishing speed in distance running its still not really an explosive activity. In any case, whenever you do hear rumors of wrong doing its more blood doping.
The upshot is that I don't think there is necessarily any moral high ground with distance running.
But I know there are many on here who know how steroids can help various athletes more than I so I will defer to them if it sounds like they know what they are talking about.
I have read through most of this thread. It seems to be divided between people who think cycling is dirtier and the proof is that track runners have a different personality than cyclist. So basically track runners are cleaner because they are just better people. And then there are those that think the two sports are equally dirty but then they make the distiction between sprinters and distance runners, and again, the proof is that distance runners are just better people. So in both cases that pillar of integrity, the white American distance runner, is definately not using in spite of the obvious drops in time by BOTH the men and the women within the last year.
And who makes up this peanut gallery? White american distance runners.
Given that pro cycling revolves around the team structure, it is a lot easier to fall into a doping culture when the team is not just providing you with the stuff but insisting that you take it to stay on the roster because in their biggest races they race as a team. Distance running is a lot more loosely organized, though we have seen dens of doping like Athletics West.
It's like UCI is totally Masbacks dirty and corrupt as hell, helping Armstrong and Landis get away with doping. The whole time taking bribes from Nike, NBC, and TV. Just like Masback did and got fired for.
Ummm...in case you have lived under a rock for the last 5-10 years, steroids are essentially a thing of the past. In endurance related sports, any benefits in recovery and performance are negated by the increase in water retention, muscle mass increase, etc.
ALL AAS will lead one to put on some form of water weight, which doesn't bode well for an endurance athletes VO2 max.
Even though Landis got busted for only T, I guarantee he was probably taking a whole lot more than that when he tested positive.
If you are going to cheat, you might as well go all out, as a cheater is a cheater, there really aren't any varyin degrees of cheating.
hardset nipples wrote:
Given that pro cycling revolves around the team structure, it is a lot easier to fall into a doping culture when the team is not just providing you with the stuff but insisting that you take it to stay on the roster because in their biggest races they race as a team. Distance running is a lot more loosely organized, though we have seen dens of doping like Athletics West.
It was more loosely organized, that is until Oregon project, which coincedently paralleled the recent rise of the american white distance runner. Sprinting was more loosely organized until Victor Conte.
Look man, I'm not saying they're cheating, but it just baffles me that the same occam's razor logic that makes Armstrong guilty as sin even though he has passed every test does not apply when explaining 4 sub 4's, 2 sub 13's, one sub 27 all within a single year!
meth cook wrote:
Ummm...in case you have lived under a rock for the last 5-10 years, steroids are essentially a thing of the past. In endurance related sports, any benefits in recovery and performance are negated by the increase in water retention, muscle mass increase, etc.
ALL AAS will lead one to put on some form of water weight, which doesn't bode well for an endurance athletes VO2 max.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Generally...Steroids which aromatize will cause one to retain more water than normal. Steroids which do not aromatize will cause one to retain LESS water weight than normal. In addition, there are drugs such as Arimidex (Anastrozole)which someone on a high dose of an armomatizing drug like testosterone can take which will lower estrogen to normal levels and eliminate excess water retention.
Designer versions of steroids and aromatase inhibitors are very common these days.
Can you honestly tell me that you think Ritz is a cheater? Chris Solinsky? yeah, real over-competitive assholes there..
(I fully expect philosophy minors' logic bashing, but I believe humans have other signs of honesty)
I remember sitting at the NYCM press conference after the marathon had concluded and Lance Armstrong said in his own words that PEDs don't improve performance at all. Right then I became convinced that he's a PED user given PED user's always deny their effectiveness.
Python wrote:
(I fully expect philosophy minors' logic bashing, but I believe humans have other signs of honesty)
If you look up to them, it's a sign of honesty.
blah blah blah...I doubt there is a single person posting on this board that truly knows the extent of doping among world elite distance runners. These East African runners live in a world that is totally inaccessible to us. We can barely piece together how they train much less determine details such as which doctors they see, whether they have access to drugs, who is/isn't pushing drugs etc. The media is not keeping tabs on them...no one is really. Cycling is dirty, for sure. Are elite distance runners more or less dirty? It's unknowable. The fact that they get tested doesn't mean much, considering what cyclists have been able to get away with.
Did you realize that previous to last year, the fastest white US 10,000 meter times belonged to Nenow, '86, Salazar, '82, and Virgin '80. All around the time of Athletic West. This was followed by 25 years of suck. Now we have OTC and Salazar, which of course has better training. So better training is something that comes to American distance running every 25 years.
Absolutely
'Steroids help with endurance activities'
Not all otherwise why do male long distance runners not get done for steroid doping all the time like sprinters?
I'm dead sexy...you're CRAP!
adsfas wrote:
Steroids help with endurance activities. They can help reduce recovery times so you can do 5 workouts a week instead of 4 and you don't break down. You think over a 6 month period being able to do more work doesn't help them?
And in cycling it isn't steroids that are the bigger in general. It is the EPO (just like running) and the like and are the real performance boosters. Now I don't know if EPO is any better than the old blood boosting of the Viren (ok that is a bit of cheap shot but I can't spell the east germans name) era, but to think that it doesn't help is nuts.
Ryan Foreman wrote:I don't think steroids would help distance runners as much as cyclists. Isn't steroids more about developing muscle mass for explosive type of physical activities? i.e. home run swings, 100M dash, weight lifting. Cycling is an endurance sport but it demands a lot of explosive type activity.
Even with the importance of finishing speed in distance running its still not really an explosive activity. In any case, whenever you do hear rumors of wrong doing its more blood doping.
The upshot is that I don't think there is necessarily any moral high ground with distance running.
But I know there are many on here who know how steroids can help various athletes more than I so I will defer to them if it sounds like they know what they are talking about.
Well considering I ran working out running wise 13 times a week, and lifted and did core work 3 times a week...
I'll assume you mean 5 hard work outs.
However it is true, steroids allow you to do more work in a shorter period of time and recover faster.
But that is what I remember hearing from the eight event guys back in the days when it was "legal," one can only assume things got more sophisticated over the years, with better steroids, and more varied types aimed at different types of effects, for different types of athletes/events.
one hand clapping wrote:
blah blah blah...I doubt there is a single person posting on this board that truly knows the extent of doping among world elite distance runners. These East African runners live in a world that is totally inaccessible to us. We can barely piece together how they train much less determine details such as which doctors they see, whether they have access to drugs, who is/isn't pushing drugs etc. The media is not keeping tabs on them...no one is really. Cycling is dirty, for sure. Are elite distance runners more or less dirty? It's unknowable. The fact that they get tested doesn't mean much, considering what cyclists have been able to get away with.
perhaps at the highest levels, sure. among the teeming masses of distance prodigies springing from east africa every year? hardly. isn't africa the place that can barely keep up with demand for aids drugs? you telling me that wanjiru, before beijing - when he couldn't even find a singlet to fit him properly - had the wherewithal to support a sophisticated drug regimen?
eyes dont lie wrote:
Daniel Komen to me seemed very apathetic and tore up the world at time just prior to the EPO test. I mean I loved watching him run but he almost seemed like a robot during and after his races. I believe his coach/agent was also Dieters coach/agent?
Komen was with Kim McDonald, same as Bob Kennedy. I forget who Baumann's guy was.