Seriously, is cycling dirtier than T&F?

Absolutely. Some elites definitely dope, but the cyclists have evidence against them coming up all the time.

Considering that year all the team support trucks and buses were infiltrated and something like 7 or 8 teams were loaded up with EPO, blood packets, etc etc, and removed from the Tour, it certainly does give the impression that it is dirtier.

All professional sports are equally as dirty, some just dirtier than others. Seriously though, if you're not cheating, you're not trying, particularly when money is on the line.

Yes, cycling is dirtier. About 100 percent of elite cyclists are dirty. The figure for track & field is somewhat smaller.

I think cycling is dirtier for a very simple reason: cyclists become accustomed to looking for shortcuts anywhere they can - lighter bike frames, lighter components, more aerodynamic materials to reduce wind resistence. Cyclists, more than runners, are relying on things besides themselves to go faster. Running, on the other hand, fosters much more of a depend-on-yourself mentality. Aside from your shoes, there's really nothing helping (or hurting) you.

95% dope in cycling, 90% in T&f, so yeah but what's the real difference?

Doping is a necessity in cycling. It just is not possible to do stage after stage at such a high level of performance without the aid of PEDs. A GC contender who goes all out in a mountain stage must dope to keep from cracking and falling out of contention on the next stage. Also, there is a lot of money behind the cycling teams to pay for the Drs needed to dope and avoid the positive tests.

In T&F, the money isn't concentrated around teams as much. Also, doping isn't as much of a necessity. Anything can happen at a race. Doping helps, but isn't the difference between being in the race and being completely out of contention.

I don't think steroids would help distance runners as much as cyclists. Isn't steroids more about developing muscle mass for explosive type of physical activities? i.e. home run swings, 100M dash, weight lifting. Cycling is an endurance sport but it demands a lot of explosive type activity.

Even with the importance of finishing speed in distance running its still not really an explosive activity. In any case, whenever you do hear rumors of wrong doing its more blood doping.

The upshot is that I don't think there is necessarily any moral high ground with distance running.

But I know there are many on here who know how steroids can help various athletes more than I so I will defer to them if it sounds like they know what they are talking about.

This + cyclists are more risk-driven and aggressive (high speeds/crash risks inherent). I know a bunch of cat 1 guys and they are a different breed than distance runners for sure.

Precious Roy wrote:

Doping is a necessity in cycling. It just is not possible to do stage after stage at such a high level of performance without the aid of PEDs. A GC contender who goes all out in a mountain stage must dope to keep from cracking and falling out of contention on the next stage. Also, there is a lot of money behind the cycling teams to pay for the Drs needed to dope and avoid the positive tests.

In T&F, the money isn't concentrated around teams as much. Also, doping isn't as much of a necessity. Anything can happen at a race. Doping helps, but isn't the difference between being in the race and being completely out of contention.

There's a completely different mentality in cycling, where cheating has always been an accepted part of the game going back to the early 20th century. The attitude has always been that it's not cheating if you're not caught.

There have been pockets of that attitude in T&F at different times with sprinters or Eastern European women, for example, but it has never been as pervasive or accepted in T&F.

I agree with both of these. If you've ever been around what we distance runners would call 2nd or 3rd tier elite cyclists, they tend to be damn competitive and aggressive bunch. Contrast that to the personalities of the top runners in the country or world. Bernard Lagat? Ritz? Rupp?

It's one thing to be competitive during practice or race, but I think behavior after a performance or outside of it tells a lot.

Lasse Viren was not a real friendly fellow and he was a blood doper. I'm not saying it's a rule, but more that I'm not surprised to know that he cheated, or that Ramzi did, or Mourhit, or these cyclists.

Daniel Komen to me seemed very apathetic and tore up the world at time just prior to the EPO test. I mean I loved watching him run but he almost seemed like a robot during and after his races. I believe his coach/agent was also Dieters coach/agent?

I never discount that thing in my gut when observing something or someone that tells me somethings not right. That comes from the earliest form of humans, it's a survival instinct and it's usually right.

successjunkie wrote:

Absolutely. Some elites definitely dope, but the cyclists have evidence against them coming up all the time.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

It's on a level with sprinting and power events

Just another running guy wrote:

There's a completely different mentality in cycling, where cheating has always been an accepted part of the game going back to the early 20th century. The attitude has always been that it's not cheating if you're not caught.

There have been pockets of that attitude in T&F at different times with sprinters or Eastern European women, for example, but it has never been as pervasive or accepted in T&F.

Of course it has. Don't be naive.

Is cycling dirtier than T&F?

No, cycling actually does the testing that matters and catches more cheats.

Just posted the following on another thread regarding the 3K WR which got me researching:

It's very interesting to look at the list and note that about 99% of the sub 7:30 marks come from BEFORE the EPO test was out and the only guys close to 7:25 after the test are Eliud Kipchoge and Bekele.

7:20.67 Daniel Komen KEN 17/05/1976 1 Rieti 01/09/1996

7:23.09 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14/09/1974 1 Bruxelles 03/09/1999

7:25.02 Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG 15/03/1978 1 Monaco 18/08/2000

7:25.09 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18/04/1973 1 Bruxelles 28/08/1998

7:25.11 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28/02/1970 1 Monaco 02/08/1994

7:25.16 Daniel Komen 1 Monaco 10/08/1996

7:25.54 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Monaco 08/08/1998

7:25.79 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13/06/1982 1 Stockholm 07/08/2007

7:25.87 Daniel Komen 1 Bruxelles 23/08/1996

7:26.02 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Bruxelles 22/08/1997

7:26.03 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Helsinki 10/06/1999

7:26.62 Mohammed Mourhit BEL 10/10/1970 2 Monaco 18/08/2000

7:26.69 Kenenisa Bekele 1 Sheffield 15/07/2007

7:27.18 Moses Kiptanui KEN 01/10/1970 1 Monaco 25/07/1995

7:27.42 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Oslo 09/07/1998

7:27.50 Noureddine Morceli 1 Bruxelles 25/08/1995

7:27.59 Luke Kipkosgei KEN 27/11/1975 2 Monaco 08/08/1998

7:27.67 Ali Saïdi-Sief 1 Paris Saint-Denis 23/06/2000

7:27.72 Eliud Kipchoge KEN 05/11/1984 1 Bruxelles 03/09/2004

7:27.75 Tom Nyariki KEN 27/09/1971 2 Monaco 10/08/1996

7:28.04 Moses Kiptanui 1 Köln 18/08/1995

7:28.28 Luke Kipkosgei 2 Oslo 09/07/1998

7:28.28 James Kwalia C'Kurui KEN 12/06/1984 2 Bruxelles 03/09/2004

7:28.37 Eliud Kipchoge 1 Doha 08/05/2009

7:28.41 Paul Bitok KEN 26/06/1970 3 Monaco 10/08/1996

7:28.45 Assefa Mezgebu ETH 19/06/1978 3 Monaco 08/08/1998

7:28.56 Eliud Kipchoge 1 Doha 13/05/2005

7:28.64 Kenenisa Bekele 1 Paris Saint-Denis 17/07/2009

7:28.67 Benjamin Limo KEN 23/08/1974 1 Monaco 04/08/1999

7:28.70 Paul Tergat KEN 17/06/1969 4 Monaco 10/08/1996

7:28.72 Isaac Kiprono Songok KEN 25/04/1984 1 Rieti 27/08/2006

7:28.78 Augustine Kiprono Choge KEN 21/01/1987 2 Doha 13/05/2005

7:28.92 Daniel Komen 3 Monaco 18/08/2000

7:28.93 Salah Hissou MAR 16/01/1972 2 Monaco 04/08/1999

7:28.94 Brahim Lahlafi MAR 15/04/1968 3 Monaco 04/08/1999

7:28.96 Moses Kiptanui 1 Köln 16/08/1992

7:28.98 Isaac Kiprono Songok 1 Doha 12/05/2006

7:29.09 John Kemboi Kibowen KEN 21/04/1969 3 Oslo 09/07/1998

7:29.11 Tariku Bekele ETH 28/02/1987 2 Rieti 27/08/2006

7:29.23 Brahim Lahlafi 4 Monaco 08/08/1998

7:29.24 Noureddine Morceli 1 Monaco 07/08/1993

7:29.25 Brahim Lahlafi 4 Monaco 18/08/2000

7:29.32 Kenenisa Bekele 1 Monaco 25/07/2007

7:29.34 Isaac Viciosa ESP 26/12/1969 4 Oslo 09/07/1998

7:29.36 Noureddine Morceli 1 Rieti 05/09/1995

7:29.43 Daniel Komen 4 Monaco 04/08/1999

7:29.45 Saïd Aouita MAR 02/11/1959 1 Köln 20/08/1989

7:29.55 Paul Bitok 1 Oslo 05/07/1996

7:29.60 Benjamin Limo 3 Doha 13/05/2005

7:29.7 Haile Gebrselassie 1 + London 07/08/1999

7:29.74 Augustine Kiprono Choge 2 Doha 12/05/2006

7:29.92 Sileshi Sihine ETH 09/05/1983 1 Rieti 28/08/2005

7:29.95 Moses Kiptanui 5 Monaco 10/08/1996

The only athletes on that list not from Kenya or Ethiopia are from Morocco, Algeria or Moroccan decent and one Spaniard at the very bottom.

Mourhit was caught for drugs (Moroccan to Belgium).

Hissou (Moroccan) ran his best marks from 96-99 down to 7:28 and then hit 7:37 in 2000 (*year of epo test*) and 7:45 in 2002! Keep in mind that is a 12:50 & 26:38 guy from 1996 running a best of 7:45 in a non olympic / non world championship year and only a few years after winning the world championships 5K.

How about Brahim Lahlafi?

Busted for drugs it gets worse for his brother who was connected to Ramzi:

2002 was definitely not a lucky year for theBoulami family. After Brahim's positive doping test, his older brother Khalid Boulami - 5000m silver in 1995 and 1997 world championships and bronze medallist in Atlanta - got a life suspension from the Moroccan federation and was forbidden to have any activity related to athletics for ever. A technical advisor for Bahrain during the last Asian Games in Busan, he is accused of inciting Moroccan athletes to change citizenship. Four Morroccan athletes competed for Bahrain in Busan : Rachid Ramzi (gold medallist on 1500m), Mohamed Rached/Rachid Khouya (gold medallist on 800m), Zakaria Abdelhak/Abdelhak El Gourch (silver medallist on 10.000m and bronze medallist on 5000m) and Abdelkabir Louraïbi (8th on 1500m).

How about Algerian Ali Saidi Sief who ran 7:25 in 2000, the year of the EPO test?

The international federation granted a special dispensation to Algerian runner Ali Saidi Sief to qualify for the world championships. While his suspension for doping will be over on 17 August, he'll have the possibility to get an A standard until the 27, on the eve of 5000m heats.

More on N. Africans:

Moroccan 800 m runner Amina Aït Hammou (2:00.33 in 2008) and her sister Seltana (2:00.87 in 2008) have been suspended for one year after missing three drug tests.

Moroccan miler Adil Kaouch, one of the favorite for the 1500m world title, has been provisionnally suspended by the IAAF after failing a drug test at Rome Golden League meet on July 13th.

Moroccan runner Omar Jimila (aka Noureddine Jalal) failed a drug test for EPO at Paris marathon where he finished 5th in 2:10:44.

Moroccan runner Aissa Dghoughi has been suspended for three years until December 27th 2009 for escaping a control. Closely related to Frenchwoman Latifa Essarokh, who failed a test for stanozolol in 2006, Dghoughi had been spotted selling drugs around St Moritz. He had already made the headlines in early 2005 in France when EPO and growth hormone had been found in his car during a routine customs control.

A bag with 10 syringes, two EPO bottles and a box of growth hormone was discoverd in Moroccan runner Aïssa Dghoughi's car during a routine control by French customs at a tollbooth. A 10000m runner (28'12 in 2001) Dghoughi will be prosecuted by the French justice for illegal drug possession.

Moroccan runner Abdelkader Hachlaf, 1500m bronze medallist at the 2003 World indoors, got a two year suspension following a positive test (EPO) in April. In the end of July, Moroccan daily Aujourd'hui le Maroc announced that 800m specialist Khalid Tighazouine also failed a drug test (nandrolone), but it seems that no official sanction was taken yet.

Do you think all the kenyans and ethiopians are clean too?

Kenyan runner Janet Ongera, failed a drug test (norandrosterone) last October in Reims' half-marathon (France) where she came second in 1h12'. She's been suspended for two years by her federation.

French sports daily L'Equipe announced that cross-country short race world champion Edith Masai failed a drug test in a French half-marathon last year and got a 3-month ban in France. She didn't have any problem with IAAF, however: the product in question, lidocain, isn't listed as a doping product by the IAAF contrary to WADA or the IOC.

Ethiopian runner Alene Emere has been suspended for two years by the Japanese federation after testing positive for nandrolone, according to Ethiosports.

Kenyan runner Pamela Chepchumba and Morocco's Asmae Leghzaoui failed a drug test for EPO during the cross-country world championships in Lausanne.

Her progression turned out too good to be legit. Kenyan quartermiler Elizabeth Muthoka, who had never run below 52 seconds before clocking 51.56 and 50.82 fin end June, early July, was withdrawn from the Kenyan team before the Games after failing a drug test

Kenyan born Musa Amer Obaid / Moses Kipkirui failed a drug test for testosterone during an out of competition control in Ifrane in June 2006. He's been suspended until September 12th 2008

If you want to view the full sources you can do:

http://www.africathle.com/gb/perso/news.html

Use your control f search and simply type in "drug" and check each year. Keeping in mind that almost no athletes are caught.

ThunderStruck! wrote:

Is cycling dirtier than T&F?

No, cycling actually does the testing that matters and catches more cheats.

This.

Precious Roy wrote:

Doping is a necessity in cycling. It just is not possible to do stage after stage at such a high level of performance without the aid of PEDs. A GC contender who goes all out in a mountain stage must dope to keep from cracking and falling out of contention on the next stage.

Always has been. 4-5 hours of aerobic endurance takes a monster amount of energy.