Chiropractic 'science' is dead

i forgot to mention that:

Md's perform manipulations/adjustments/mobilizations

as do:

Do's

Nd's

PT

and

Dc's

Sorry but the science behind dc's doing it, is the same as the science behind the above professionals too. they have the right because the act listed as a controlled act in their professions as well.

ps. i met and read the work of many of the above authors listed and many of them work in conjunction with other medical professionals.

blew up your back eh? sound serious.

whirledpeas wrote:

i knew this was bs science when i was in high school. why it's accepted in general has always confounded me.

Yeah, because in high school you knew everything and were so smart. Bravo for being a kid genius who knows better than all those clueless adult scientists. I guess being in high school and knowing something is true just makes it that much more true.

You are only showing your stupidity.

big words wrote:

blew up your back eh? sound serious.

Since you ask, I couldn't work for 3 months and when I started back, I had to start at 1 hour a day and work my way up to 8 hours over the course of 4 or 5 months. I had the spasms for 3.5 years and some types of work I did would aggravate it more than others.

Initially, I had some nerve damage as I had numbness in the front of one leg. I had a herniated disc, a dislodged spinal cord and muscle and ligament strains. (would that suffice as "blew up") I was working by myself at the time and don't believe I was unconscious very long. It took me about an hour to pull myself out to the car.

The first thing I did was went to the chiro figuring he could just adjust me back in place and I would be good to go in a couple days. He took one look at me and sent me to the emergency room for x-rays. I did get lucky and didn't have any broken bones. Of course the first thing they did at the ER was write me a prescription for Vicoden which I refused to use. I made it through with muscle relaxers and ibuprofen.

My back is just about 100% now for running and I only have occasional tightness. (It originates in my upper back related to the herniated disc) I have learned a couple stretches to alleviate this when it happens.

herman hisman wrote:

i forgot to mention that:

Md's perform manipulations/adjustments/mobilizations

as do:

Do's

Nd's

PT

and

Dc's

Sorry but the science behind dc's doing it, is the same as the science behind the above professionals too. they have the right because the act listed as a controlled act in their professions as well.

ps. i met and read the work of many of the above authors listed and many of them work in conjunction with other medical professionals.

When physicians do it, it's generally to treat the musculoskeletal issue it addresses.

When chiropractors do it, sometimes it is too. But often it's to treat something entirely unrelated. Like when they believe that a simple neck adjustment can reduce your risk of cancer, or cure pneumonia, or that type of thing. THAT is the major problem people have with some chiropractors, I believe, and when that kind of thinking permeates the profession so deeply, it's tough to separate it from the positives.

Many specialities within modern medicine, such as psychiatry, are based on "science" that was never alive. They are absolutely no different from chiropractic "science" in this regard. The main problem is that our understanding of biology is still relatively poor, and as a consequence many contemporary health problems cannot be effectively dealt with.

dcdc... Thanks for presenting your side of the argument. I wish that you would have provided some reading material to back your claims. Also, if you are so confident in the validity of your claims you should provide your name. I did go to look at the literature and found a chapter that looks "for evidence of how somatic dysfunction creates both somatic and visceral dysfunction."

It can be read here:

http://www.chiro.org/research/ABSTRACTS/Visceral_Disease_Simulation.shtml

The PubMed citation for the article is here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7595111

Below are a few quotes from the article:

"Although this might very well provide ample justification for the role of the somatic therapist in the comanagement of the patient's overall symptoms, it is highly important that any significant amelioration of symptoms in these circumstances not be interpreted as representing resolution of the actual visceral disease process itself or that the patient, upon experiencing significant symptomatic relief, be allowed to discontinue important medical treatments that might serve to put them at serious risk or worsen their prognosis for recovery."

"On the other hand, for those who might continue to seriously pursue the question of whether manipulative therapy might indeed represent an appropriate means for treating true primary visceral disease, a word of caution is in order. In addition to the employment of appropriate control groups for natural remission, placebo effects, etc., such clinical trial studies must also include careful, state-of-the-art, diagnostic pre-screening of study populations to exclude (or at least account for) those patients who might be harboring somatic simulation syndromes, rather than the true visceral disease under investigation."

From the conclusions:

"Furthermore, current knowledge regarding the function of the autonomic nervous system also fails to support the existence of a plausible biological mechanism that could ac-count for such a "somato-visceral disease" relationship. Simply put, the autonomic nervous system just does not seem to be capable of inducing frank tissue disease in any of the organs it innervates, regardless of the state of its relative activity."

"On the other hand, there is simply no doubt that afferent nociceptive signals generated from dysfunctional deep somatic structures can often result in referred pain patterns, along with a number of equally misleading autonomic reflex responses, that have been shown to simulate (rather than cause) true visceral disease because of their convergence on the same pools of central nervous system neurons that also receive afferent input from regionally related internal organs."

My statement in the title of the post that chiro science is 'dead' is a bit misleading. But my statement at the beginning of my post is more accurate. Chiro science isn't dead, it just has never come to life. The preponderance of scientific evidence show that somatic therapies (chiro, acupuncture, etc.) have no causal relation to treatment of visceral diseases. However, our understanding of the nervous system (or biological systems in general) is woefully inadequate. So chiro may eventually have a scientific explanation but right now it has none.

I found it interesting from the article that chiropractic has high effectiveness at treating somatic simulation syndromes, or, in other words, fake illnesses.

The point of my OP was not to completely undercut chiropractic, only to warn against using it as a substitute for primary care. If going to the chiropractor makes you feel good, that's great. If you go to relax, fine (though I recommend massage instead). If you think that a chiropractor will cure all your running-related injuries, you should stop dreaming.

I think that chiropractic medicine works in these two ways: relief of back/joint pain -- somatic, and an emphasis on overall health.

Chiropractic medicine is totally off when it:

1) tries to cure infections through manipulation. We have a chiro-doc who used manipulation on an ear infection that lead to hearing loss (family member so no lawsuit)

2) promoting the myth that vaccinations are evil. We are on the cusp of reintroducing awful, awful illnesses to the American public with so many unvaccinated folks out there.

The history of chiropractic did begin with subluxation based diseases and held the theory that spinal misalignment would lead to disease. Many chiropractors continue to believe in this concept as many believe that instead of these subluxations that joint restrictions (improper range of motion in joints) feed into improper biomechanics of the body and increased muscle spasm and/or tightness.

My undergrad work was geared towards P.T. but back in my day P.T.'s were not Primary Care Physicians, you couldn't see them with out an MD's referral (today there are many Dr. of P.T. programs, although many insurances cont. to request a M.D.'s referral for care). Doctor's of Chiropractic are Primary Care Physicians and thus you can see them without a Dr.'s referral. This led me to choosing chiropractic care when injured during my post collegiate training and eventually led to me working within the profession.

Today a good sports chiropractor will use the adjustment as one tool to help with the overall treatment of the patient. Ultrasound, Muscle Stimulation, Kinesiotaping, Soft Tissue Therapy, specific exercises, stretches may all be used to help with the tissue healing of whatever muscle, tendons and ligaments that me be injured. (depending on your state and the states scope of practice these almost always can be billed out to insurance)

ex.

typical treatment for achilles tendonitis - depending on the cause and underlying cause of the injury.

Check biomechanic mobility of pelvis and/or ankles, this may require an adjustment to bring back proper mobility and motion to the restricted joints, ultrasound and muscle stimulation for tissue healing, soft issue therapy to break down scar tissue and bring proper range of motion to muscle, Kinesio taping to help support tendon with running and eventually eccentric loading exercises to increase strength of Achilles during loading phase. Running biomechanics should be assessed to decrease future occurrence and load on tendon.

So there may be some cross over from one profession to another but when I refer a patient out to P.T. it is to get specific exercises and stretches that will help the patient with any muscle imbalances or tightness. If the P.T. supplements with any other modalities than I will not use them on the patient.

P.T's, D.O.'s and M.D.'s have seen the benefits of adjustment and have used them within their own profession.

(although I am not sure haw many programs have 4 years of specific drills and experience in mastering the adjustment)

Although the theory of the subluxation based chiropractic has not been proven this should not condemn a profession that has grown and evolved into much more than subluxation based.

Currently many of the top U.S. runners speak openly about how one local chiropractor (Dr. Justin Whittaker, DC) has helped them "revive" their running career with his chiropractic care.

I'd like one person who actually went to medical school to bash chiropractors on here... if you think most chiros think they can "fix all" by cracking your back, then you may be dumber than the idiot MDs that think pumping all people with drugs is the way to have a healthy society. There are stupid people in every medical profession, which should be noted, but only in chiropractic is it that everybody is judged by the minority. You can't just make stuff up and use it as fact... some people even use myths like the propaganda being spread on here to justify physical therapists (who have half the schooling and no manipulation training) to perform adjustments which can and should lead to them losing their liscence to practice physical therapy.

Also, vaccinations can and do kill or seriously harm some people... I don't know a single chiro that thinks nobody should be vaccinated, but if the population has them, then I know I don't want my kids to have the risk of suffering horrific side effects, and as an American I have that right.

Lets try a little knowledge and research people... Chiropractic is well-backed, effective, and highly useful. It doesn't only help "back pain" and I don't know a single chiro (of many that I do know) that thinks any illness can be fixed through manipulation. There are many things that are caused by mechanical problems (not joints being "out", but rather "stuck", not visible by an x-ray) such as migrane headaches, or perhaps severe pain behind your knee caused by sciatica (in your lower back, which I had and many people had me doing PT on my hamstring to fix until the chiro helped). Lay off chiropractic until you actually learn about what it is and stop trusting the people who want to take chiropractors' work without the 4 years of medical school it takes to get it.

Everybody deserves respect if they are doing respectable work like all chiropractors I know. I have personally had more running injuries healed by chropractors and made worse by athletic trainers than I could even describe and many times its because the AT heard what the chiro wanted me to do and said to do the opposite... well... one worked and one (the trainers advice) set me back for quite a while.

The facts are out there... every profession has its wack-jobs. Most chiropractors do extremely good work!

Tell your story to the U.S. Olympic Committee. They have 2 chiropractors assigned to the medical staff in Colorado Springs:

http://chiropracticresearch.org/NEWS_Two%20Chiropractors%20Named%20to%20Olympic.htm

OOPS! That was 2004. Check outthe additional staffing in 2008!!!!!!!

http://www.chiroeco.com/chiropractic/news/4620/52/4-DCs-named-to-official-U.S.-Olympic-medical-team/

Yes, but they also allow curlers and archers into the Olympics.

maybe you dont know any chiros who tout manipulation and their services for curing diseases, but i have been told of a husband and wife chiro team here in my hometown that claim to cure damn near everything possible. they work on small children to "cure" them of their breastfeeding separation anxiety. no i am not kidding. they work on other kids to "cure" ear infections. they work on pregnant women to "cure" morning sickness. they work on all kinds of people to "cure" depression, anxiety, obesity, addictions, you name it. these people are heading for a death of a patient, and a huge lawsuit or jailtime.

I don't really buy into chiropractic either. I was dragged kicking and screaming to see one once on the recommendation of a friend. Mostly I was just humoring the friend.

But I'll be damned if the guy didn't cure me. I mean literally cured me. When I got up on the table, I was unable to run, hardly able to walk due to a tendon injury. When I got back off, it was like I'd never had the injury. I immediately jumped right back into high mileage and never looked back. Not another moment of pain.

I'd seen PT guys, ortho guys, everybody and the only one who actually did anything useful was the "quack".

Search for: chiropractore and diabetes and cure and you get 2.6 million hits.

A lot of those say it doesn't cure diabetes, but many others say it will "lower blood sugar" which is what many Type 2s want, even though there is no study showing this.

I've been told by my wife's chiro that he can lower blood pressure, and resolve numerous other health issues. And I say, quack, quack, quack.

I go to the doctor, he tells me not to run more than 40 mpw because I get injured. I go to the chiropractor, she cracks my bones a little bit and now I'm running 75 mpw no problem. Thanks chiropractors.

get out and meet more wrote:

maybe you dont know any chiros who tout manipulation and their services for curing diseases, but i have been told of a husband and wife chiro team here in my hometown that claim to cure damn near everything possible. they work on small children to "cure" them of their breastfeeding separation anxiety. no i am not kidding. they work on other kids to "cure" ear infections. they work on pregnant women to "cure" morning sickness. they work on all kinds of people to "cure" depression, anxiety, obesity, addictions, you name it. these people are heading for a death of a patient, and a huge lawsuit or jailtime.

And there are thousands of cases of traditional Dr's selling the same kind of snake oil but that should not stop you from finding a good Dr.

In truth, Chiropratic care gets a bad rap because of a few reasons:

1 - The training process is generally not as rigorous as that of a Dr. (though it is more so than many other medical professions) and getting in to a good med school is more difficult then a good school of chiropratic care.

2 - There is more money/prestige in being a traditional Dr. (more debt too) which overall will mean more of the best and brightest will migrate towards the traditional care.

3 - Greater history and support of the science in traditional care.

All of this does not mean that you can't find a Chiro, there are many and they are invaluable towards keeping many runners healthy. All it means is that you should do your own vetting process and talk to people you trust - it does not take long for word to get around the running community if someone is good (as well as bad).

Like most things in life, if it sounds too good or too bad to be true it probably is - I don't trust Dr's/PT's that dismiss all Chiropractic care reflexivily and I don't trust Chiropractors that think they can solve the world problems. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

get out and meet more wrote:

maybe you dont know any chiros who tout manipulation and their services for curing diseases, but i have been told of a husband and wife chiro team here in my hometown that claim to cure damn near everything possible.

I went to a chiro for the first time in about 12 years a few weeks ago because of back problems and was desperate. Went to a person that had been recommended to me, and while he didn't say all that, he did tell me that going to a chiro can save you from a heart attack basically....stated that everyone who died from (can't remmber the type of heart problem) had misalignment in his spine. And he went all into explaining to me how making sure everything is alligned is so important to your health in so many ways because of the nervous system flow or whatever...so i would not be surprised if he believe everything you just said.

I thought he was a quack from listening to him, but, my back also never felt so good in about 2 years since it started bothering me, and this was within 2 days. Basically i went from being crippled to being able to do everything again.

So what i took out of that....both times i've used a chiro they've changed my life by making my back useable when regular doctors told me to rest for a year, or get surgery (that's all a regular doctor will say...ice/drugs/rest, or surgery). But this one believed stuff that i thought was ridiculous.....but i don't care since all I wanted was my back working again and it worked.