Lydiard Aerobic Phase

do you have to pay in order to get more articles on lydiard foundation? I've googled everything I can about lydiard, I've downloaded all the PDFs, interviews and stuff I can find and put them in a binder...but I still want more! Any good suggestions of sites for more information?

sim wrote:

Is 3 times a week the recommended amount for the harder runs HRE?

If you follow the original schedule, you'd have had two or three runs in the lower end of the range (10-12 miles) and if you followed Snell's plan of doing the shorter runs "a bit" faster, yes, it would work out to 2-3 harder runs a week.

But I hesitate to say athletes should do three harder runs a week during the base phase for a couple of reasons. One is that people tolerate harder running differently so for some three faster runs may be too much. But the second reason is that a lot of people have a hard time holding themselves back when they decide to do a harder run.

I think in a lot of cases if you just alternate between longer runs, 90 minutes and upward with shorter runs of 60-75 minutes you'll find most people naturally will do those 60-75 minute runs faster than they do the longer runs.

Thanks. I have recently tried to overcome a problem with my own program over the use of the word 'hard', so i've put the word as solid. This is faster than steady which is faster than easy. It is followed by max i guess, a time trial or race. I'm lucky in that i see all of their paces and so can adjust them visually so, as you are also saying, can cater to individual differences.

I guess the athletes do 6-8 of these in a 3 week period.

what do you think?

actually i would love a critique of the basic program i am using right now with some MD runners i coach. Most don't have a big background in long running.

John

____

Wk1

12/5

MON:Strides 4x80,Solid 40>60,Strides 4x80

TUES:am: Easy 30>45 + Enduro circuits/ pm: Easy 30 + medballs

WED: strides 4x80,Solid 40>60,Strides 4x80 + torso circuits

THURS: am:Easy 30>45, pm:Easy 30 + stairs + enduro circuits

FRI: steady>solid 50, 4-6x150/60 secs

SAT: Steady 10km road race (Sandown)

SUN: Steady 60>90 @ Ferny ck + enduro/torso circuits

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Wk2

19/5

MON:Strides 4x80,Solid 40>60,Strides 4x80 + hurdle drills

TUES:am: Easy 30>45 + Enduro circuits /pm: Easy 30 + medballs

WED: strides 4x80,Solid 40>60,Strides 4x80 + torso circuits

THURS: am:Easy 30>45 /pm:Easy 30 + + Enduro circuits

FRI: steady>solid 50, 4-6x200/60secs

SAT: Easy 45 + torso circuits

SUN: Steady 60>90 @ Ferny ck + short hill sprints over 80m

-------------------------------------------------------------

Wk3

26/5

MON: Strides 4x80,Solid 40>60,Strides 4x80

TUES: am: Easy 30 + Enduro circuits /pm: Easy 30

WED: Strides 4x80,Solid >45,Strides 4x80 + hurdle drills

THURS: am: easy 30 + torso circuits /pm:Easy 30 + stairs + enduro circuits

FRI: Easy 30 + 4-5x120/60

SAT: rest or easy >45

SUN: Steady 60>90 @ Ferny ck + short downhill sprints over 100m.

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I guess as an ex-decathlete i can't help myself with all sorts of technical elements like hurdles and bounding and medballs etc. I definitely don't see them as harming things.

sim

While we've got a useful discussion going, I'd like a bit of input. I'm getting my milage up for the first time in a while and I'm following the basic longer/shorter format; I'm finally up to 80 miles/week. I'm trying to get used to the milage before I try to add the stress of faster running or more difficult terrain.

Here's the thing: on the longer days I always head out with the intention of keeping the pace easy, but by halfway through I feel good and I end up running my longer days faster than my shorter days. Should I force myself to run easier on the longer days? I figure if I feel good go with it and if I feel worn out slow down, regardless of whether it's a long or a short(er) run.

Widsith the Wide-Traveled wrote:

While we've got a useful discussion going, I'd like a bit of input. I'm getting my milage up for the first time in a while and I'm following the basic longer/shorter format; I'm finally up to 80 miles/week. I'm trying to get used to the milage before I try to add the stress of faster running or more difficult terrain.

Here's the thing: on the longer days I always head out with the intention of keeping the pace easy, but by halfway through I feel good and I end up running my longer days faster than my shorter days. Should I force myself to run easier on the longer days? I figure if I feel good go with it and if I feel worn out slow down, regardless of whether it's a long or a short(er) run.

No. Keep on doing what you've been doing. The thing is; the more you can run at faster aerobuc pace, the better. If that takes doing the longer runs faster and taking shorter runs as recovery; so be it. I would pay, however, to include some hills either on one easy day or along one of the longer runs; and/or do some faster fartlek or strides once a week just get the range of motion stimulated. I think Robert Vaughan was doing it this way, if not mistaken, with Francie Lariue Smith; if not, the idea came along while talking to him which, to me, makes sense.

"The thing is; the more you can run at faster aerobic pace, the better"

The bottom line?

ps Nobby can you comment on my program pls? It looks a bit structured right now to me but it never works out according to plan, the athlete is often amending theirs.

Yeeks, I write a post in the evening and then wake up to see it the thgread has taken off. Good stuff.

Sim, Are you Simmo on Aussie Cool Running ?

I am a bit hesitant to write specificaly about Arthur as we did an awful lot of that on the Lydiard v Daniels thread (about a years worth !!) and all we would be doing is repeating stuff.

We have also written on other threads as well.

Just a comment about your schedule.

I see the decathlete coming through !!.

One thing I have done (still do) is have Gym sessions once or twice a week where we do Basic form drills (Mach), Hurdle drills and Med Ball work, ather than do "Bits" each day.

That leaves the athlete more time to do more "specific" distance work.

Quite often the Distance runners would run to the Gym sessions and then run home.

I find those sessions excellent and back in the early 80's when I started those with an old friend of Arthur's. Arthur said he saw trhem as valuable as less and less athletes had "Physical" jobs and needed that

Strength base.

Kiwi lifestyles have changed hugely in the last 40 years (as have Aussie) with more and more emphasis on Labour saving devices. So his argument was relevant.

Sim:

I sort of second Kim. I do feel somewhat hesitant to post here any more because, as far as I'm concerned, it's out of control; way too many trolls and one individual pretending to be 5 or 10 or God knows how many people. I don't mean to "sell" but that's why we created our own message board at Lydiard Foundation's website. I'm hoping this to be where anybody can discuss Lydiardism, pros AND cons but in more civial and honorable manner (because at least I can see who you are! ;o)). So far we only had very limited "regulars" but we would eventually do more "promotion" and people would make notice of its existence.

In terms of the schedule you laid out; I'd rather not comment simply because I don't know enough about before and after. 3 weeks segment is only a small representation of what you do in the macro program; and this means within the season AND seasons (where the athlete is in terms of his/her development). I would assume, however, that, being the other side of the world, this is the schedule for heading for the winter??? Any cross country races coming up or is this "conditioning" phase for next season? If latter, perhaps too much sharpening work without any specific purpose of needing to develop it. If you're preparing for XC races, then, for XC races, perhaps sharpening should replace strength development (not muscle power but what John Landy used to call "staying power") with some of short sharpening work??? Assuming you're actually heading for XC races, some of the gym work perhaps should have been done a little while ago??? While I second Kim in importance of some of the gym work and drills, that should probably be done during the winter conditioning period. Once the races get in sight, most of the energy should be geared toward more race-specific work such as time trial or windsprints.

All along the way, if the athlete is a teenager, I believe the need to develop his/her aerobic base in a very gradual way by doing lots of easy jogging is higher AS WELL AS developing more supple strides by doing, as you have, drills and easy hill exercises. Downhill sprints and uphill sprints are excellent for sharpening but, once again, if the races are months away, you may want to consider replacing them with more classic Lydiard hill exercises.

Just a thought...

I am currently on my fifth week of aerobic condition, and I have about until the middle of July to finish. When is it time to start adding strides, maybe a tempo run around current 10k pace, a fartlek, etc?

My goal for this week is to hit 65-70. I have been around 40-50 with taking a day off each week, and I feel that I need to do more.

Thanks.

Anyone care to structure a 70mile week? I also plan to do at least 2 doubles this week for the first time.

M: AM:4

PM:8.75 (did this today)

T: 8

W: 10

T: AM:4

PM:8

F: 8

S:7

S:13-14

Total: 70.75-71.75

Kim and Nobby thank you. I can see where you are coming from. A few quick explanantions to help things along and i'll begin reading the lydiard v daniels thread so i get up to speed.

The year is basically april to march and we are in May. Just beginning. There are XC races although the only race is that damn road race at Sandown over 10km. We don't need road so early. The main XC races will be July-September.

The strides could be the confusing thing. At the moment what happens is the athletes turn up and warm up. Then i get them to do a series of strides from about 50% buulding to about 90%. Then they go for their run. When they return they do strides again. I do it for two main reasons. One is technical training. I am used to feedback after every throw or jump so i give them feedback after every stride. The other is simply to gauge where they are at more accurately. This can lead to a modification in the session that i would have otherwise missed. When they return i can then gauge what the long run did to them. I realise this isn;t as effective as having Arthur or Percy running along with the athlete but it is the best option i have so far short of riding a bike or doing the car thing ala Peter coe.

The medball, hurdles, stairs etc take about 15 minutes to do. I could put them all in one session as Kim suggested, however, the way my coach has shown me periodisation is that in general preparation, some of everything is better than a lot of one thing. Also the focus of these activities is not so much for any real strength gain, it is more on posture and technique. Because I see posture as being reinforced through these activites i see them as assisting learning to run more efficiently. (as well as extra benefits for coordination and mobility) An example might be that after a few strides i can see the athletes look a little weak so i activate their strength a little through 15 mins of medball exercises. Or if they look heavy on the ground we do hurdle drills. Possibly they are flat so we throw the discus around for a little bit. Even discus reinforces some technical aspects of running and definitely the same basic posture.

This may be in part an over reaction to the hundreds of serious MD runners here in Melbourne who run any way they like to their own detriment. A little focus on technique and away from mileage or volumes of track reps would do them wonders.

ps i don't care about the trolls and i like the fact that so many different opinions are in letsrun. Still i can't wait for the Lydiard Foundation message board gets going. I will have to visit now that i am registered. Thanks Nobby!

ps the year roughly

general preparation: april-july 15 weeks

specific preparation: august-october 12 weeks

pre-competition: november-december 9 weeks

competition 9-12 weeks january to march

So the MD guys do base preparation in long running up to the end of October pretty much.

The 3 weekly macro cycle in the post above is repeateable so in gen prep the cycle repeats 5 times. In spec prep 4 times and so on. Part of this repeatablility is that every 3rd week is lighter and this -seems to clash with lydiard's approach. The end result is that the 14-16 weeks it takes to peak from Arthur's base period needs to be extended in this program. Hence there is 18-21 weeks for pre-comp and comp phases. I'm not sure about this yet because one thing the 3 weekly macro does is inhibit rapid growth in any one element of training. It tends to spread the training energy around more broadly which allows for a slower overall growth but one which hopefully is balanced in all the elements. I'm not sure how this will work out exactly once we get to that stage. For example in the hill phase i would run it over 2 cycles meaning 4 weeks of hills circuits 3xweek with the third week and sixth week doing one full version, one shorter version and one trial version. Third week is trial week usually. This naturally differs from 4 straight weeks.

cheers and looking for more advice

Sim:

So you haven't actually completed this program yet? From a quick glance, first thing I thought was that that it could be too long for younger athlete??? I'm sure, in Australia, you guys have cross country season??? Why not use 2 cycles program??? I don't know how the racing season of 9~12 weeks work out down there but, if you can afford to use early races as a part of your training, I would. Lydiard almost always used 2-cycle program with XC and track with XC being more or less less emphasized (not that it's not important, but the main forcus was always track).

So are you saying "general preparation" is "marathon conditioning"???

Nobby

no i haven't completed this program before although the past ones were the same just lacking the emphasis on the aerobic running. The guys just did a normal XC season with school last season or say 30-50kms around their repetitions if out of school(eg 6x2min/1min or 8x2min/1min or 12x1min/1min). So the shift to the long running emphasis is a bit of an experiment. (most of the kids were at schools i work at).

It's for guys 15 years and up pretty much. The youngest guy used to cycle for 1.5-2 hours every sunday before he began running and i'm lucky he already has the 'marathon' mindset.

This one guy for example has now done 8 weeks of solid running as per that program and is into some sort of free zone now where he can just keep going and as he keeps going it gets easier and accidently faster. He is up to 80 mins on the Sunday and the other runs are at the maximum on that program (ie 45 mins easy and 60 mins solid). I'm hesitant to allow to much more growth in his mileage just yet as he already hit 70kms last week 1. He just loves it. No ipod or anything just himself his thoughts and the path in front of him.

The two cycle program i like the idea of. It would work perfectly. The general preparation is totally marathon phase and whilst the specific preparation is also marathon phase for the long running there may as well be an easy peak for the bigger races at the end of the season. Then we can re-develop it for a little bit before cycling through hill, repetition and sharpening phases and finally the national championships.

General prep/marathon phase 15 weeks

specific prep/marathon phase 12 weeks

pre comp 9 weeks

comp 9-12 weeks

so marathon training would continue up to the end of spec prep allowing 27 weeks for it. As we approach the last half of spec prep i think i should allow a slight sharpening up for those final few races. Then a week or so rest before re-establishing that base for 3 weeks and then moving into the pre-comp (with leadup competitions) and then the comp phase.

I guess the thing i can't understand yet is whether cycling the hills over 6 weeks instead of 4 and the repetitions over 6 instead of 4 will make much difference.

cheers Nobby

ps XC races everywhere this time of year in Melbourne. Yesterday a 4km road race, the day before State ALl Schools XC relay titles. The week before a schoolboys 6km race and a senior 8km race ... and so on. The problem is they want to do every single one.

sim

You can do strides anytime in the cycle. Just give yourself enough recovery between them as to avoid getting really out of breath.

The tempo thing is trickier as really, there are so many interpretations as to what "tempo" means in actual practice. My suggestion would be to do something mroe along the lines of what Magee told me he did, i.e., do the second half of a run faster than the first half, preferably one of the hourish long ones. If you want to do something at your 10k pace I'd keep the length fairly short.

This is a productive thread finally.

I just finished a complete Lydiard cycle and with success. After running randomly for several years, I decided to do the Lydiard things, seeing that I know it fairly well now.

Base phase, never got to 100 miles, but as a working stiff, master and father 70 - 85 miles per week for 12-14 weeks was best I could do.

Hill Phase was shorter and lighter than prescribed, because by the time I got to the hill phase I was SICK OF THE HILLS....sorta....but did do a 3 week phase with circuits, bounding and springing.

Speed phase 4 weeks, be feel.

The times trials I did kept getting easier....or not easier, but faster times.

Sharpening, I envented my own own sharpener. 50m easy, 50m fast, 50m balls out fast. x 4 or 5 or 6....

Pb'din the following:

2 5k pbs and 2 5k pbs as splits in longer races.

1 8k pb 1 8k pb as split in race

1 10k pb

1 half marathon pb

...now...just riding the wave.

Lydiard works...

This a 2 week training cycle proposed in one of the Lydiard artciles:

1. Conditioning (As long as possible) 2 week cycles.

Monday: Aerobic running 3/4 to 1 hour.

Tuesday: Aerobic running 1 to 1.5 hours.

Wednesday: Run hilly course 1/2 to 1 hour.

Thursday: Aerobic running 1 to 1.5 hours.

Friday: Jog 1/2 to 1 hour.

Saturday: Run hilly course 1/2 to 1 hour.

Sunday: Aerobic running 1.5 to 2 hours.

Monday: Run hilly course 1/2 to 1 hour.

Tuesday: Aerobic running 1 to 1.5 hours. Wednesday: Time trial 3000 or 5000 meters.

Thursday: Aerobic running 1 to 1.5 hours.

Friday: Jog 1/2 to 1 hour.

Saturday: Relaxed striding of 4 to 8 times 200 meters.

Sunday: Aerobic running 2 hours or more.

My only question is what is up with the time trials. Are they run all out?

How many years have you been consistently training and how much time off your previous PBs? Thanks, because that is important, eh? :)

Lydiard works for some.

Other systems work for some.

LOL! And you are a foundation rep so of course you will say it works. But there is so many ways to skin a cat and look at the sub27 min guys these days to see just what they are doing. It ain't Lydiard, Babe.