Seb Coe had phenomenal

I had him at 12.2

the real reality is fun wrote:

He ran 1:42.33 the year (1979) he ran his fully auto 400 PR of 46.86 and relayed a hand-timed 45.5 (or 45.7, depending on the source). For non-sprinters, it's typical to add 1 second to 400 relay times, as unlike with sprinters, they have relatively poor acceleration--in other words he was probably capable of about 46.50 in 1979. In 1981 he took @ 1.6 seconds off his mile PR, 1.3 seconds off his 1000 PR and .6 seconds off his 800 PR, with most of his improvement coming from improved strength. It would be silly, therefore, to credit him with more than about .2 seconds off his converted 1979 400 relay best. In other Coe, at his "very best" (1981) was probably capable of about 46.20-46.30 out of the blocks.

you forget coe ran the 400 very sparingly & maybe just that 1 open 400 back in '79 & none in '81 when at his peak

believing that a 1-off race is truely representative of an inexperienced 400 guy's absolute ability is wrong - his time woud be a starting point only

the suggestion was low-45 running a season of 400s exclusively, with no specific training - just off his 800/1500 ability

run 1/2 dozen of those in '81 in good conditions/opponents, allowing him to experiment with pace - trying initial quick 200 & trying to hang on, slowish 200 & coming back faster in last 1/2, etc, until he finds the ideal way to race it for him - something unlikely to be achieved in just 1 serious attempt at the distance

it's also worth digging out peter coe's book & his comments on his son's possible 400 potential in '81 ( i haven't got the book, but someone here will almost certainly have it & can enlighten us )

jabroniii wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfBBylDlvQU

Did Webb run like a 10.6 the final 100m?

hahahahahahahahaha. 10.6?

Californian wrote:

Not doubting that Coe had amazing finishing speed, but in '86 he was outkicked by Cram off of a very slow pace at the Euro Champs 1500m (3:40 race w/50 sec last lap). Although not in the same form as he was in '81, Coe did run 3:29.77 that year so he wansn't far off of his peak. Cram did not have nearly the same 400m speed as Coe

coe in '86 was 5y hence from his likely peak in '81 with different speed/endurance mix - perhaps more endurance & less speed than in '81 but allowing him to still run a 3'29.7

according to lists :

coe only had 1'44.10 that year !

i doubt that was his absolute best possible that year ( probably more like 1'43.0 - 1'43.5 if he'd run a few that year )

giving him benefit of doubt, i'd give him 1'43.0 - 1'43.5 / 3'29.5 that year which gives 400 ability possible of

~ 46.7 - 47.3

this is similar to cram's 400 ability ( of '85 at least ), so it's no big surprise coe coudn't decisevely outkick him in a slow 1500 - they were probably identical over 400 that year

~

ventolin wrote:you forget coe ran the 400 very sparingly & maybe just that 1 open 400 back in '79 & none in '81 when at his peak...

oops !

scrub that to some extent

i'm going senile as i keep making that low-45 mistake again - i looked at some ole posts & realised i keep making that stoopid mistake repeatedly :

i can't use 1'41.5 & a 3'46.5 to predict his 400 because despite him setting multiple 1500/mile records & 2 golds, his 1500/mile was never as good as his 800 ( just look at all-time lists for 800 & 1500/mile ) - it gives a too fast estimate for 400

his 1'41.5 for '81 is fine ( perfect race ), but he didn't "last" the 1500/mile those days as well as the 800, despite running 3'47.33 ( ~ maybe 3'46.5 with ideal pacing )

1'41.5 with

45.7 ->~ 2'10.94 , 3'27.49 , 3'44.67 , 7'32.85

45.8 ->~ 2'10.86 , 3'27.15 , 3'44.27 , 7'31.42

45.9 ->~ 2'10.78 , 3'26.81 , 3'43.86 , 7'29.99

46.0 ->~ 2'10.70 , 3'26.47 , 3'43.46 , 7'28.56

46.1 ->~ 2'10.62 , 3'26.13 , 3'43.05 , 7'27.13

46.2 ->~ 2'10.54 , 3'25.79 , 3'42.65 , 7'25.70

looking at those, maybe about 45.8 - 46.0 looks right ?

obviously he didn't run those times, but what it implies is that if he did "last" the 1500/mile as well as he did the 800, then he shouda been capable of ~ 3'27-flat in '81

in actuality, it appears coe was over 2s+ shy over 1500/mile that his 400/800 ability implied ( consistent with a primarily 800 runner running 1500/mile mostly off that 800 ability )

as cram got mentioned, might be worth posting something on him :

in '85 he ran 1'42.88, 2'12.88, 3'46.32

some notes :

- he ran 1'42.88 outkicking cruz off last bend : cram went thru in low-50 & struggled a little in stretch - he himself admitted he didn't like to go thru in low-50s, he preferred more even splits - perhaps 1'42.5 - 1'42.6 that day off his ideal initial 400

- 2'12.88 was run in terrible weather - cold & windy ( ? also wet ) - tha was very likely a 2'12.0 - 2'12.1 in ideal weather with best splits

- his 3'46.32 shouda been much faster : very slow at the bell ( i thought he was going to go at best 3'48+ ) but finished off with an incredible 53.2 & wasn't weakening at the line !

i don't usually use 800 with 1k times to estimate others ( too close together & therefore too much extrapolation error, but it works well in this instance for cram

1'42.5 / 2'12.1 ->~

46.31

3'28.98

3'46.24

4'48.89

7'35.01

1'42.6 / 2'12.0 ->~

46.64

3'28.22

3'45.30

4'47.30

7'31.39

latter looks better fit which means possible mid-46 speed in '85 & also if he'd run an ideal 1500 in that oslo form, he shouda gone below 3'28.5

The 1985 Oslo mile could have been a race for the ages. That was the year that Coe ran 1:44.0 solo in mid May at the Middlesex County Champs - this was by far his fastest opener of any season. He then picked up a calf injury and lost 3 weeks training and had a series of minor niggles throughout that summer - he didn't race between 22/6 and 18/7.

He was well beaten by Cram in the Oslo mile only running 3:49.22. In 1985 he only ended up running 11 races as opposed to his usual 18-20 per season in his best years. By late August he was running 1:43.07 and 3:32.13. Jimmy Hedley (Cram's coach), "I'd have loved to see them both fully fit at the same moment. The world record would have gone out the window."

Uk runner wrote:

By late August he was running 1:43.07 and 3:32.13. Jimmy Hedley (Cram's coach), "I'd have loved to see them both fully fit at the same moment. The world record would have gone out the window."

Excellent points.

Another reason the WR might have gone out the window is that when they competed, each tried to outflank the other's strengths. I.e., Cram liked to start from the back for the first lap, run evenly paced / neg splits and make a long drive for home, whereas Coe liked to get out quickly, settle into second place, and then change gears over the last 400, 300, and 100m. Cram was at his best leading down the back straight, while Coe always tried to prevent Cram from getting in front, according to several of his comments. The 1984 Oly 1500m is a good example.

JRinaldi wrote:

That's not even that good of a race to see his closing speed. Watch this race in Olso in 84...the last 100m is amazing..but more amazing is his freshness after the race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg5a9Ap5iQU

Wicked! Coe was just cruising.

And David Coleman was he best athletics commentator EVER.

The 84 800 is perhaps the most impressive 800 finish I have seen - along with Cruz' 84 performance. Coe and Ovett's finishing bursts have a sparkling quality to them - so many of today's races are single file time trial efforts that don't inspire in the same way.

It looks like Billy Crystal is running in the lane outside of Coe...

for completeness sake, must mention the last of the triumvirate - ovett

i'm of belief his peak year was '78 despite setting 800/1500/mile wrs in '79 - '83 period

he demonstrated fantastic speed & endurance by running 1'44.06 ( 2nd in euro champs in a race & not tt, when wr was 1'43.4 ) & 8'13.51wr when just sitting on rono & then outkicking him on last lap

now, he was possibly worth 1'43.25 - 1'43.5 in an ideal paced race & certainly an 8'10 - 8'12

that indicates :

1'43.5 / 8'12 ->~

47.07

2'13.14

3'29.97

3'47.18

4'49.66

7'35.01

13'21.44

1'43.25 / 8'10 ->~

47.01

2'12.78

3'29.29

3'46.43

4'48.63

7'33.19

13'17.84

some points :

- his 400 appears slower than either of coe's/cram's at their respective peaks, so he possibly woud have been least favored in a slow 1500

- back in '78 he was capable of breaking the 1k, 1500 , mile, 2k wrs & probably just shy of the 3k & really shouda gone <3'30 that year ( a time not actually beaten until '85 ) if he'd found the ideal paced race - that's why it's annoying to know he spent some much of his <'79 career just racing & not really chasing wrs & only did so when coe's exploits forced him to

I believe he won the Commonwealth title over 5000m in 1986 i 13.20. Did he (mentally?) retire after his unfortunate exit in '84?

The 1 sec difference for the 4x400m relay is a bit off in Coe's case. His true relay capability is more like 1.3 - 1.6 faster than standing start depending on the scenario. I've seen 800m runners run as much as 2" faster on a 4x 400m relay leg, and that's international level, not HS. the relay time is the more honest assessment of speed capability.

Watch the 400m clip and notice how many meters Coe runs even with Hasan.

Whether or not Coe's big year was due to added stamina, speed or both is debatable. His improvements seem to be proportional to the distance, but improved speed also flows to longer distances. I imagine Coe was faster that year at 600m, 500m,and 400m also.

142.3->141.7 would suggest a few tenths faster in the 400m, and

2+" in the 1500m.

he did run a 5k against yifter in '77 ( 1y before above ) & got beaten in 13'25 :

http://athleticssuperstars.tripod.com/Steve_Ovett.htm

a slight improvement generally couda been expected between '77 & '78

Cram, Coe and Ovett (+Elliot I suppose) were fantastic milers.

Competitive with todays milers. Compare that to what happend in the 5-10K! Also note many other fine middle distancerunners

in the UK in the 80s and 90s (Steele...). The decline is

as remarkable as the depth of the kenyans in the steeple.

Coe's potential in 86 was better than 1.43. In Stuttgarthe run 809 meters(1.44,50). His theoretical splits were52,5+50,8. Clearly he had 1.42,0-1.42,4 potential. That is very logical with his 1500m time he run in Rieti. His timewas 3.29,77 and he had a bad stumble,that cost acording to Coe at least 0,5 sec. So it was worth c. 3.29,2 which is equaly good with 1.42,2(for 800/1500m types).

Helsinki wrote:

Coe's potential in 86 was better than 1.43. In Stuttgart

he run 809 meters(1.44,50). His theoretical splits were

52,5+50,8. Clearly he had 1.42,0-1.42,4 potential.

So fake splits of 52.5+50.8 show that he could run 1:42.0?...

Helsinki wrote:

Coe's potential in 86 was better than 1.43. In Stuttgart

he run 809 meters(1.44,50). His theoretical splits were

52,5 + 50,8. Clearly he had 1.42,0-1.42,4 potential. That is very logical with his 1500m time he run in Rieti. His time

was 3.29,77 and he had a bad stumble,that cost acording to Coe at least 0,5 sec. So it was worth c. 3.29,2 which is equaly good with 1.42,2(for 800/1500m types

back to your interminable "extra distance run" estimates without full, uninterrupted, unparallaxed view of their feet thru each curve ?!

52.5 + 50.8 supposedly, isn't any big handicap - it's a little off the correct "even pace" method i suggested to run the "perfect" 800m

800m is long enough distance that it isn't anywhere close to an "all out sprint" & logic dictates that it shoud be run as close to "even pace" thruout" for most efficient energy expenditure

what is "even pace" for 800 ?

an 800 is a 400 outta blocks + flying 400

relay analysis suggests the difference between an open 400 & a flying one is ~ 1.0s

therefore , ideal splits for most energy efficient 1'43.0 are :

52.0 + 51.0

evidence for this can be seen at youtube with :

- cram's 1'43.22 to wn '86 ec : ~ 52.0+ / 51.0+

- borza's 1'42.47pb to win '01 race : ~ 51.5 / 50.5

the reason why guy's don't do it appears to be they lack the balls to give up 10 - 12m at the bell & believe they will haul the leader back by finish ( they shoud do if they are comparable quality athletes )

as for coe's rieti run : i saw it on tv at the time & remember cram at track-side saying he thought "wr was going to go when i saw him flying on the las lap"

i don't remember any stumble ( but only saw race once & didn't tape it ), but i vaguely recall it being mentioned elsewhere - what part of the race ?