Some more information about kenyan athletes

I decided to put Nicola in Genova because, 4-5 weeks before an important marathon, another easier marathon run at 90 % of intensity is a very good specific work, that normally is not possible to do in training. You must remember that the specificity of Marathon is a SPECIFITY OF EXTENSION. We use, for example, Specific Marathon Endurance Workouts, like 4 times 5000m at Marathon Pace (MP) (for ex., in 15'30") with 1 km of interval run in 3'30". Developing your shape, you are better not when are able running 4 x 5000 in 15'10" (if you want running a Marathon in 2:10'), but when you are able running 5 x 5000m in 15'30". So, you must identify the pace, and then you have to increase SPECIFIC ENDURANCE at the same speed. Marathon Endurance has the mean to modify your methabolism, reducing the consumption of glycogen at the same pace. We use also some test for controlling this development, that I can explain later.

So, in Genova Nicola ran in 2:17 ; cannot be a problem running, 4-5 weeks before the main marathon, another full marathon 6 min slower (and in this case it's also a training well paied....)

Hey, Bekele, thanks because I never saw before my work (used in Jakarta for a Seminary with Asian coaches) in a site ! May be that I'm not Malmo (that I personally don't know). Ridicolous suspects make ridicolous who suspects !

If you want, I can explain my philosophy of training. I don't want to be a scientist, only to explain how my athletes were able to reach results that for me are normal and for many people are impossible (in their mind). If you are a runner of talent, you cannot limit yourself, but have to discover yourself. Fright is not a good companion for a champion !

Renato:

While in Brussels, Leonard Mucheru told me of his plan to go to Bahrain. Do you know if he is proceeding with this? Simon Maina is back to Japan for a while, at least up to Yokohama.

Regards to Gianni.

Mucheru moved to Bahrain, but this Federation didn't follow the IAAF rules. Two athletes went to Bahrain, for competing in GULF Championships, that, beeing a not official Championship under the direct control of IAAF, requests only 1 year of wait after the last partecipation in the old national team : Abel Cheruiyot, my athlete, born in 1984, silver medal in World Cross Ch. Junior in 2002 (that already spent 1 year of time), competing in steeple going in 2nd position back Saifeldin from Qatar, and Mucheru, that was not elegible soon because in Kenyan team during World indoor Championships this year. So, Mucheru went to Syria, but, because of a rebuke of IAAF, didn't compete, coming back soon for the IAAF G.P. Final in Montecarlo. Anyway, he will move to Barhain in short time, but is not elegible for Cross Country and for OG, beginning only from next World Ch. (2005) his experience with his new Country.

Renato, thanks for your efforts to remove some of the suspicion from the modern-day performances of Kenyan athletes. Your marathon training that "BEKELE" posted was interesting...Would you be willing to share some of the training approach you use with Joseph Mutua or other 800m athletes? thanks.

Now in Italy are 8 a.m., and I am coming back to the post.

About 800m training, I use a method very different from Lydiard. This fact is not because Marathon Training is not good, but because the type of activity today is no more the same. 40 years ago, during winter there were not indoor races every where (only in US, on very small tracks), and the number of meetings during summer was very little. Peter Snell never made meetings in summer. So, he could have time for preparing, giving big importance to his basic training, but having yet long time for developing specific work. For example, in 1964 he ran a full marathon in winter (I don't remember if in 2:27 or in 2:24), then developed a big volume, running for ex. 30 x 400m in 60" recovery 1 min, about 50 days before OG.

Now, the new system of training is based on high intensity.

Athletes able running in 1'44", never have to rest to long time, losing a part of what before they were able to build. The new frontier of methodology is to use during a season many periods of specific training, with a strong modulation, but always at an intensity very high. For example, Mutua and Bungei runs about 1 hour only 1 day per week (during winter, in Kenya), but for improving their AEROBIC POWER use other system : 10 km alternating 2 km fast in 6'/6'10" and 2 moderate in 6'40", or a progression with 6' at 3'10", 5' at 3', 4' at 2'52", 3' at 2'45" and last 2' hard competitive. In every period of the season there are work of good speed : 1000 + 800 + 600 + 400 + 200, for ex., in 2'30"/ 2'22" - 1'58" / 1'52" - 1'25" / 1'18" - 56" / 51" - 24" / 22" (the first is during winter, the second when they are in top shape). Here is too long to explain every thing, but, for ex., we use special workouts for improving STRENGHT ENDURANCE for the final, like 5 x 500m with first 200m in 25", then 100m bounding in about 14", then 200m very fast again, with 7'/8' recovery. The best work of Bungei in this direction was with times of 1'04"8 - 1'05"6 - 1'06"2 - 1'05"8 - 1'06", on 24th of August this year. We use a lot of sprint climbing, on different distance. Is the preparation of a 400m runner, with the base of a 1500m runner.

If you want the exact program of Mutua, I can send you thru normal e-mail.

Poster of the year? He states that "... EPO is not an advantage to a distance runner,"! Who is he kidding. EPO is an advantage in any endurance sport. Good info here and there, but c'mon, get real with the EPO claims, OK?

Western athletes are too concerned with extraneous crap. The quality in the West has also dropped off because the quantity, in terms of numbers of competitors, has dropped. Gassed up Africans, whether they are from East or North Africa have also contributed to the malaise, it isn't all genetics as some claim. If it were, we wouldn't have Lagat, Chepchumba, Boulami, Komen, and some of the other messes we've seen the last few years.

Aw c'mon. If Bungei had actually had pneumonia, he wouldn't have hopped out of bed, clocking sub 1:45 within days, and sub 1:43 within a couple of weeks. Please, dude. I enjoy your information and opinions, no matter who you really are, but a lot of this reeks of someone trying to head off impending problems at the pass, you know what I mean? Lagat gets busted, so it's time to circle the wagons and start all the joy of running bs, the genetic gifts stories, and so on. Nothing you've posted makes any of the athletes you mention above suspicion for doping.

Notice how all you guys pounce on what he says as matching exactly what Hodgie and Malmo are saying. It isn't. Read it again. He just explained the difference. Can't you guys read? Those are the innovations I mentioned on the other post to no avail. They train differently now. Face it.

I well know that many athletes take EPO or something different. Simply, I don't think that the effect is so important on performance, expecially in very long run. I'm sure about Stephen Cherono, Nicholas Kemboi (his improvement surprised me also), Paul Kosgei (moving in less than two years from steeple to World Champion in HM), and all my group. Why I have to think that other athletes, many times back mine, have to take something for running more slowly than them ? Or someone can persuade me that, if I give EPO to Nicholas, he runs under 26', and Stephen runs steeple in 7'50" ?

I confirm : this is my profession ; I was, during the last twa years, Scientific Director of Italian Federation, and made researches in that direction. EPO was created for helping people with problems, for ex. needing dialysis. For them is correct to speak about an improvement of 30 % in transporting Oxygen. But, thru training, you can go OVER the values that you can reach with EPO. So, EPO can help prrformances of bad and medium athletes, with a poor training, but cannot help the best, that train very hard with correct systems. One thing that I agree is that many athletes become mentally stronger if think to have some help. For example, about recovery times, you cannot know how long you need for recovering a very hard work till when you try, but the most part of athletes don't try because think that is not possible to recovery. Using something from the extern (not only EPO, but also integrators or similars) they try more hard training, giving the credit to that type of assistance. BUT IT A PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEM.

In any case, this is my opinion and my convinction. I'm a methodologist, not a chemist, and I work on the phisiolgy and psychology of my athletes. Then, everyone can think what he wants, but in this way, you continue to create limits in your mind.

If they are "inovations" why don't they work on his own people (Italians)? If his "inovations" can have a bed ridden guy run 1:42 a week later, you would think these "innovations" would produce at least one non bed ridden Italian who could run 1:46? If his "innovations" can take a "teenage" Kenyan from 28:20 to 26:30 in a few weeks, surely he can take the 10 or so Italians who run 29 flat down to 27 flat in say a year. But no, there are no Italians running 27 flat. Why can't he get any Italians to try his "innovations"? What is it about his "innovations" that Italians decide after doing a risk/reward analysis that are not worth it? What is it about his "innovations" that so many dirt poor are willing to try?

How can Wifrird Bungui be bed ridden during the WCs, then come back the week after the WC and eaily dispose of all the best in the World in the fastest time of the year in 1:42?

Look at the date Bungui announced he wouldn't run the WCs. Then go back and look at the date the Kenyan insiders found out Lagat got caught. Same date. What a coincidence.

Keep posting "innovator", some of these guys are eating it up. Some are even writing down the workouts.

About Wilfred, I want to ask to Sabatini (clearly originating from Italy) why he thinks that Bungei had something to hide refusing Trials. Also in US, if you have a bad kind of flu (may be not pneumonia, I don't know exactly your scientific terms, but in any case high fever, cough and difficulty in breathing) and are recovered in a hospital for one week, you are able to train after 2 weeks about. The shape of Bungei was at the top after Golden Gala of 12/7, also if he was not able to win, because during that period he trained very hard for preparing WCH. The first period of big charge in training was programmed from 8 of July to Trials, then another in Switzerland from 28/7 to Zurich (that was the only event targetted before WCH). He was sick from 18/7, and left the hospital during the second day of Trials, going to see the final. So, he began jogging on 27th, improving for one week the volume but running very easy. Then he came to Davos the first of August. His race in Berlin (1'44"73) was possible because one month before he coul run 1'43", and one month later 1'42". He improved quickly in Davos, running a 400m (4 days before Bruxelles) in 45"07 (hand timing), faster than ever before. So, no doubts, but everything consistent and normal for who knows athletics ! Of course, you are free to continue to think what you want, and I'm free to think that you don't know anything about athletics, talking nonsenses !

My dear "anti inovator", my answer is very clear and simple : the reason because there are no more great italian runners is the same because there are no more great english or great americans. Young generations don't know what is fatigue, effort, and have no motivation in running. Is for you normal that Ryun ran 3'33" in 67 and the best athletes 36 years later is not able running so fast ? The real problem is that people now live in a technological generation, and the goal of young people (and not only young) is to have something more commod, having a machine working for them (but their work is only to press a bottom). So, for trying something new, you need to work with real talents, not only in athletics, but in every field of Life (musics, arts, business, politics, economics ecc.). How already I wrote in another post, "Cannot a donkey become a horse", and I'm sure that, if I try to coach you, of sure is not possible to improve very much....

Thanks for answering my question, Renato. Your ideas are a welcome insight on this board.

For those of you who don't already know, Renato is an IAAF presenter who has spoken internationally about his training methods for the marathon. A detailed report of his training is available through the IAAF website for $8. The link for that publication follows.

I just want to tell everyone on the message boards that you are getting advice from a coach who coaches the best runners in the world and every other post is people not believing what he is saying. Do you people really think that he has nothing else to do with his time? He really cares about athletics and is trying to help us out. And the people with the bad posts are the same people wondering why american elite runners and coaches never post on message boards. It's because all they are trying to do is help share their knowledge and all they get is people bashing them. So if you have a negative comment and don't want his advice that's fine, I could care less. But don't post crap in the discussion. This is the exact reason why JK, wejo, and others never post anymore like they did in the good old days. Because they can't say what they believe in without others posting crap back to them. So enjoy this thread cause the good threads are far and few now.

But again,

If he is "the best coach in the world" and he "is trying to help", why won't he help his own people (Italians)?

Why hasn't he gone to the 29 minute Italian 10K runners and tried to help them? Why haven't the 29 minute Italian 10K runners gone to him? Are the Italian 29 minute 10K runners all lazy as he says? I strongly doubt it. To run 29 minutes for 10K drug free takes enourmous effort and years of dedication. Have the 29 minute 10K Italian runners looked at his workouts and said "It may make me run 26:30 within 10 weeks but I ain't trying that, that is too tough, I am too lazy" ?

Or is it not that the Italian 29 minute 10K runners are not too lazy, but they don't want to try his other "innovations"?

Or is it that the "Best Coach in the World" won't approach the Italian 29 minute 10K runners because he knows they won't try his modern "innovations"?

It doesn't add up and I am not buying it.

When Lagat ran 3:26 off an "innovative" 40 mile per week program, I screed on these boards over and over for 2 years that it didn't add up and I wasn't buying it and I am not buying this.

Leave the store.

Renato- you said that

"So, for trying something new, you need to work with real talents, not only in athletics, but in every field of Life (musics, arts, business, politics, economics ecc.). How already I wrote in another post, "Cannot a donkey become a horse", and I'm sure that, if I try to coach you, of sure is not possible to improve very much...."

Most of us do not have extreme natural talent. Do you think that the kind of intense, fearless training that you describe is the correct way for those lacking world-class ability to improve their own running? Also, do you believe that a person who is not world-class naturally talented can become a great athlete if they have great desire and are willing to follow this sort of training to its fullest extent?

Intense fearless training will take you to whatever

potential lies hidden within you. The guys in the early

80's realized their potential. Negative talk is a barrier

to taking the first step.