Les:
In order for Lagat to attain US citizenship, he would have to GIVE UP any claim of citizenship for any other nation. Including Kenya. So, when he took his citizenship oath, he effectively gave up his Kenyan citizenship. To represent Kenya in Athens, he would have had to have reneged on his US citizenship oath.
"If Lagat was still a Kenyan, do you think he'd have had a slow start this Summer? Smoke that in your hypothetical pipe."
I have absolutely no idea. Maybe? Does it matter?
The point is that it is objectively harder to make a Kenyan world team at 1500m because 1) the talent pool is deeper, and 2) the Kenyan federation injects a significant element of subjectivity into the selection process.
Assuming that Lagat would have had the same slow start in Kenya as in the US, emigrating from Kenya makes sense. I have no idea whether this is a fair assumption, but the point stands: it's easier to make the team as an American.
Why are people getting so riled up about this? I think it's a pretty straightforward argument, and one that can surely be conducted with a reasonable standard of civility.
Peter
You get my vote. Makes sense to me.
Layden says he is uncomfortable with Lagat. He should just call him! He'll see what kind of man he is and will probably still feel the same because he (Layden) believes the American people as a whole are owed (I just wish Lagat would come totally clean.) something? Layden is the only sports writer who has written this. He is the only writer that has made this claim that somehow Lagat owes you!
Not worth the time it took to post this. Just cancelled my SI subscription.
Since Layden is so critical of Lagat and his citizenship issues..did he ever lay the same criticism on the Greek Olympic baseball team that was almost exclusive American..how about American jew who compete for Israel..or Mary Pierce who competes for France. There are a bunch of World class swimmers I recall who are essentially Amerincan but compete for another country because one parent carries a passpaort from a ntoehr country..usually Western European.
closefriend wrote:
Layden says he is uncomfortable with Lagat. He should just call him! He'll see what kind of man he is and will probably still feel the same because he (Layden) believes the American people as a whole are owed (I just wish Lagat would come totally clean.) something? Layden is the only sports writer who has written this. He is the only writer that has made this claim that somehow Lagat owes you!
This entire paragraph is fabricated. Layden didn't say Lagat "owed" anyone anything.
Not worth the time it took to post this. Just cancelled my SI subscription.[/quote]
No you didn't.
That's 2 paragraphs by you, both of them false, that makes you a serial liar.
deception game wrote:
closefriend wrote:Layden says he is uncomfortable with Lagat. He should just call him! He'll see what kind of man he is and will probably still feel the same because he (Layden) believes the American people as a whole are owed (I just wish Lagat would come totally clean.) something? Layden is the only sports writer who has written this. He is the only writer that has made this claim that somehow Lagat owes you!
This entire paragraph is fabricated. Layden didn't say Lagat "owed" anyone anything.
Not worth the time it took to post this. Just cancelled my SI subscription.
No you didn't.
That's 2 paragraphs by you, both of them false, that makes you a serial liar.[/quote]
The feeling Layden leaves me with is that Lagat owes something by the fact he says "I just wish Lagat would come totally clean." Everybody now knows Layden's position on Lagat so why does Lagat now have to come clean? It's a given as to what he did or didn't do in this case.
I did cancel my subscription.
I didn't appreciate Layden's comments on Alan Webb either. People should just realize that in the last race of rounds, even the best athletes in the world don't know if their legs are going to be there in the last 100M! Hence the 10,000, 5000, 1500, 800 just ask Mottram, Webb, Symmonds, etc.etc.etc.
um yea but... wrote:
So lagat would struggle to make the Kenyan team? Really?
I guess I missed his two gold medals. When you win a gold medal at a world championship doesn't it usually mean you are better than everyone else in the WORLD?
It is often said, making the Kenyan team is often more difficult than winning a medal at a Championship
Neuropsychiatrist wrote:
Since Layden is so critical of Lagat and his citizenship issues..did he ever lay the same criticism on the Greek Olympic baseball team that was almost exclusive American..how about American jew who compete for Israel..or Mary Pierce who competes for France. There are a bunch of World class swimmers I recall who are essentially Amerincan but compete for another country because one parent carries a passpaort from a ntoehr country..usually Western European.
completely different. those people competed for the teams JUST for the olmpics.
none of the usa guys changed their citenzenship to greek to play baseball
The bottom line is Lagat lied about his eligibility for the Kenyan Olympic team in 2004 for selfish reasons. In 2004 he was am American citizen who kept it secret so that he could commit fraud against the sport and the Olympic movement.
Some say you can't have it both ways. Lagat proved you can.
Be prepared to be called a racist in 3, 2,...
YOU RACIST!
This country is full of filigreed moralists who don't believe in morality. It's hard enough to follow the 10 commandments; how is Legat supposed to follow the 10 thousand sanctimonious protocols.
closefriend wrote:
I didn't appreciate Layden's comments on Alan Webb either. People should just realize that in the last race of rounds, even the best athletes in the world don't know if their legs are going to be there in the last 100M! Hence the 10,000, 5000, 1500, 800 just ask Mottram, Webb, Symmonds, etc.etc.etc.
Neither Webb nor Symmonds deserve mention alongside Mottram in that comment. Even Mottram's inclusion in the statement is debatable.
The margin for error in making the WC or Oly distance team for Kenya is much like it is to make many of the sprint or hurdle races for US men. The toughest part is often making the team and athletes often need to fully peak and taper for Qualifying. A bad race or minor injury can keep a legit contender from even advancing.
To site a specific example, the man with the two fastest steeple times in the world this year, Paul Koech, did not make the Kenyan team is steeple.
not quite. wrote:
Les:
In order for Lagat to attain US citizenship, he would have to GIVE UP any claim of citizenship for any other nation. Including Kenya. So, when he took his citizenship oath, he effectively gave up his Kenyan citizenship. To represent Kenya in Athens, he would have had to have reneged on his US citizenship oath.
Not true. Australians can acquire US citizenship without renouncing their Australian citizenship. Steve Irwin, for example, held both.
It all depends on the policies and treaties of the countries at hand. For example, your statement is true for the US and France (however you can have dual citizenship if you were born with both). With Kenya, the US (in theory) has no problem with dual US-Kenyan citizenship (as far as I know), but Kenya does not recognize dual citizenship beyond age 21. So, techincally speaking if Kenya follows its own rules, Bernard was not a valid Kenyan citizen at the time of the Athens Olympics, BUT they elected not to enforce the rule.
Reading Tim Layden's article gives me a whole new perspective on Lagat as an American. I would have to agree with Layden on Lagat not being honest on many levels, and because of that it will make it hard to root for him in the future. Too bad! I had thought better of Lagat.
I have no qualms with Lagat wanting to be a US citizen, and I feel for his dilemma, be open about his citizenship or lie about it and deceive the faithful of 2 nations. The only fair thing to do would have been for USOC to strip him of his medal in 2004.
I welcome Lagat with open arms into our country, but citizenship should be something you seek for reasons other than committing an athletic fraud against the Olympic movement.
wejo wrote:
The 48-flat relay split that Allyson Felix threw down Sunday night in the women's 4X400-relay? It was the singular moment of the championships.
That was ok, but Irving Saladino winning the gold on the final jump of the competition was much better. There was no stress on those ladies, that gold was in the bag. To hit a big one on your last jump, that's special.
"The US DOES recognize dual citizenships" The United States does not have the right to ask if you have dual citizenship. I and my daughters just went through that mess because one of my kids failed to renew her American passport and came back to the US on her Irish one. Caused a heart attack for the INS folk screaming and shouting at her while keeping her locked in a small room. But as it turned out they had no right to hold her. All she needed to do is re-new her passport but of course our local passport office is backed up for about 6 months so she will have to do it in Ireland where it takes less time to process.