Nike Oregon Project - Success or Failure?

I didn't make any comment - just an observation which would be hard to disprove in the short term.

You sound like dudes in the Bush administration: "If you question, you're bad!"

Hey Jimbob, the aquatic pool they are using is called a HydroWorx pool. Here's the webiste:

www.hydroworx.com

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it says right on the front page about this project. And yes, there is a hyperbaric chamber they are using for muscle tears..it says so near the beginning of the Wired article. I found the Wired article last summer when it was only 4 pages long..its now mysteriously 10 pages long..anyone else pick up on that? It does seem though as if Salazar is pushing them too far..I'm sure some of these theories work, but putting them all together, who's to tell which ones are contributing and which aren't doing anything...an interesting experiment, but many potential problems.

My initial reaction to reading the article on the project was that, despite the love of gizmos and cutting edge science, the approach of the coaching was not scientific. There seem to be too many variables in play on a daily basis, in terms of what gizmos are in use, to get any reliable data about what is and is not working. That said, I reserved judgement pending the results on the road which are all that really matter. As a group, the runners have not exactly lit the world on fire. I could see sticking with the regimen as is for another year but, baring true advances, it might be time to simplify the protocols and begin to determine gizmo by gizmo who is getting benefit, while keeping in mind that every runner is an experiment of one.

hey, I'm quite aware of what Al accomplished, and I'm not making digs at those things. The guy was a hero of mine. But I know, from interviews with him that I've read, that he himself wishes he did things smarter and gave himself a break from time to time. He himself has stated that he's "protecting" these guys from making the same mistakes of over-training that he made. Yeah, I think all of us on here wouldn't have minded having a "world record" in the marathon at 23...at the same time, no one would want to then be washed up at 25, either.

I don't know what they are complaining about, being forced to stay in the house 12 hours per day. The article says they sleep 10 per night, so that means only 2 waking hours in the house. Between showering twice a day after double workouts and eating, they should be able to spend almost all their time away from the house. I'd love to have an opportunity to live rent-free, get health insurance covered, travel expenses, meals, etc. paid for, and just train. No job, no worries. Heck, I'd probably work part-time on a Master's degree a few credits at a time.

I only commented on what I have seen and heard. I have met the people selling the OmegaWave and understand the principles. I just do buy into it. They give lots of anecdotal evidence claiming they were able to predict race outcomes from the Trials in 2000. Funny, I bet I did just as well looking at times. They claim to have studies. If you want to read them, good luck. Obscure Russian journals with questionable peer review methods. It helps to read Russian (luckily a science friend is from Lithuania and he poked about a dozen holes in the Omega Wave and he was educated in the Russian system!).

The creators of this gizmo could not convince people far smarter than me to buy or lease one for use. I'll stick with the folks with the Ph.D.'s that I have worked with for several years.

Again, how does Al know what is having an effect if anything if he is using so much stuff. Who is analyzing the data?

What he got for all his hard work was ARs in 5K 13:11?, 10K 27:25, marathon 2:08:51, 5 mile 22:05 road, 4 major marathon wins, NYC x 3 & BAA, a possble WR in the marathon if Lebow had not measured wrong, idiot. Also AlSal made 2 O-GAmes teams, 10K & marathon-14th place 1984LA. SO what if he walks with a limp today? Skylon what are you talking about..abreviated career, I'd take, how about you, no?

I'll bet you Salazar himself would trade those records and wins for a longer career instead of being done at 25. If you had run those times and won those marathons how would you feel to not even be able to win local road races? How would years of frustration and struggle to even get close to your previous times feel? He might have medaled in the '84 Olympics and run even faster times if he had not been so impatient. This was a guy who dropped out of college to train in Kenya for the 1980 Olympics -- he wanted success NOW and he got it -- but at a price.

Les wrote:

I'll bet you Salazar himself would trade those records and wins for a longer career instead of being done at 25. If you had run those times and won those marathons how would you feel to not even be able to win local road races? How would years of frustration and struggle to even get close to your previous times feel? He might have medaled in the '84 Olympics and run even faster times if he had not been so impatient. This was a guy who dropped out of college to train in Kenya for the 1980 Olympics -- he wanted success NOW and he got it -- but at a price.

I guess all success is at a price. I doubt that Salazar wanted anything more than to run as hard as he could for as long as his body would allow it. He might have hoped for a few more years at the top - but that is the price. What would he have saved himself for anyway? There wasn't much of a road circuit or big pay days....

He was the Ryan Deak of his generation.

In 1982 Salazar had a $1 million dollar carrot dangled in front of him if he set certain American records.

To Les & Skylon: I wish I could have OVER TRAINED my way to: 13:11, 27:25, 2 x 2:08+, two O-Games teams, plus NCAA XC1978. You two guys, jeesh.. OVER USE the words Career, Overtraining, Washed up. AlSal was what WAS RIGHT with USA running 20 years ago. I wish the USA had one AlSal now instead the countless runners trying to extend their mediocre preformances. Skylon please name me one runner you could put up to hero status now days like AlSal, not including BK.........? That's right none, I thought so. You have it wrong, not every runner will continue to burn hot like Carlos Lopes did into his late/high 30s. What did Neil Young sing..Better to burn out then to fade away. You guys are killing me, overtraining, ha

jzstiner wrote:

To Les & Skylon: I wish I could have OVER TRAINED my way to: 13:11, 27:25, 2 x 2:08+, two O-Games teams, plus NCAA XC1978. You two guys, jeesh.. OVER USE the words Career, Overtraining, Washed up. AlSal was what WAS RIGHT with USA running 20 years ago. I wish the USA had one AlSal now instead the countless runners trying to extend their mediocre preformances. Skylon please name me one runner you could put up to hero status now days like AlSal, not including BK.........? That's right none, I thought so. You have it wrong, not every runner will continue to burn hot like Carlos Lopes did into his late/high 30s. What did Neil Young sing..Better to burn out then to fade away. You guys are killing me, overtraining, ha

"Overtraining" comes from Alberto's own mouth. I trust what Al says more than your opinion. Those great track times and his great Boston win over Beardsley all date from the same year, 1982. In '83 he was slipping and in '84 he wasn't even a factor in the Olympic marathon. Put another way, when Frank Shorter won the Olympic marathon he was 24, just a year younger than the age Al was when his career basically ended. Then Shorter went on to become a world-ranked track runner and another Olympic medal. He trained hard and smart, unlike Al, who will tell you that himself. It's one thing to have age and injury end your career, but to do it to yourself at 25 is a real waste.

Better to burn out then fade away, Frank Shorter never ran faster then AlSal. Frank Shorter did run to two medals but he was also only 28 (1976) when he flamed out, right? Don't be a FOOL, make hay when the stems are dry.

Also pull another name out of your ass/bag that compares? Look at the WORLD , nobody is waiting to perform well. Look as far back as Herb Elliot, all young. Bill Rodgers could be the only oldster that could be called into this brawl, ha. How old was Jim Ryun when he peaked? Most folks PEAK well before 30 & you know it. Guys that read this, don't WAIT.

luv2run; good comments on the "gizmo" There are a couple British Ex phys guys at a college in Canada who have been looking at the thing for a couple years now. Their summary to me was to not let it replace what you as a coach feel is right for your athletes. In other words, when you feel your runners are ready for ahard session, see what it says, and when you think they are not ready, see what it thinks, not the other way around. Also, they doubt if a typical coach could understand the thing enough for it to be worthwhile. My feeling is often that tech devices function based on mean data (if good research was done in the first place), but that a coach can't always rely on mean reactions -- if we did then we wouldn't need coaches. In fact it may be the not-so-normal who make the best athletes anyway