There is no such thing as "GOING ANAEROBIC"

spaniel wrote:

TRY to learn something before acting like you know something and arguing with someone like Phoenix who actually knows what he's talking about. Lactate cannot be metabolized without oxygen, so if you're low on oxygen under heavy exercise you are not using it for a fuel source. It is only after oxygen levels increase with decreased/ceased activity that lactate will be recycled as fuel.

you actually sounded like you knew what you were talking about until this paragraph.

I think we're getting a little off course. I believe the terms "anaerobic" and "aerobic" are simply laymen terms used to describe the effort. Aerobic refers to either complete glycolysis (pyruvate shuttled into mitochondria) or the oxidation of fat. Basically, "aerobic" refers to the actions in the Kreb Cycle & ETC. This is because oxygen is the final hydrogen carrier at the end of th ETC. Anaerobic refers to incomplete glycolysis. This is basically a "traffic jam" in the mitochondria. Oxygen is carrying as much hydrogen electrons away as it can and so pyruvate can not enter the mitochondria. Since energy is still needed pyruvate is converted into lactate.

Alan

It is a wonder that Jumbo Elliot, Lydiard, Cerutty, Gags, and Dellinger managed to coach anyone without this knowledge.

lmb wrote:

It is a wonder that Jumbo Elliot, Lydiard, Cerutty, Gags, and Dellinger managed to coach anyone without this knowledge.

The knowledge was there in those days. If anybody wants to dispute this, please refer to the early studies on metabolics from the 1930s.

I've taught this to my AP Bio students a few times, so I think that I can explain this pretty simply.

Glucose is converted to pyruvate in the cellular cytoplasm, this is called glycolosis. It requires no oxygen.

If oxygen is present, the pyruvate molecule will be transported into the mitochondiron and lose a CO2. It will then combine with Co-enzyme A and be ready to combine with oxaloacetic acid, thus entering the krebs or citric acid cycle. This will release a couple more ATP and a bunch of carrier molecules that can take electrons to the electron transport chain.

If insufficient oxygen is present in the cytoplasm, the pyruvate will not enter the mitochondrion, rather be converted to lactic acid via the fermentation process. That lactic acid will not be converted back to until there is sufficient oxygen to do so (ie after the race or after you have slowed your pace back down)

If you define anaerobic exercise as exercise that demands more energy than can be provided simply by the complete metabolism of glucose via the krebs (citric acid)cycle, then you can "go anaerobic" quite easily.

I meant to type "via the krebs cycle and electron transport chain" in that last line.

Thanks CoachB, I actually understood you, unlike everyone else.

Living in the Past wrote:And that since they were both much faster in high school than malmo, malmo was not on their level mentally.

Although wellnow didn't say, I wasn't.

lol! So, malmo, all kidding aside, do you really think that the only thing that kept you from running 3:55 or 8:40 in high school was your mental state?

baluba wrote:

Thanks CoachB, I actually understood you, unlike everyone else.

I aim to please, though malmo may disagree with some of my ideas periodically.

wellnow wrote:

Most runners can run 100m holding their breath, so the first six seconds would be anaerobic, and the rest of the run would be aerobic use of lactate.

No, there would be a mix of fuels at all intensities.

say what?? wrote:

Phew! wrote:

Boy it's a good thing we have you around to tell us.... well... what we've already known for decades now!

You mean you agree? But it's total bull$hit. It's common knowledge that lactic acid accumulation causes us to go anerobic. Once that process starts, you are not long for that pace.

You need to learn about lactate and lactic acid and that humans really do not produce lactic acid (oversimplifying a bit). Lactate buffers acidity.

During exercise, the first energy source tapped is Creatine Phosphate (stored in pools). This is an anaerobic process.

The next source is glycolysis, which is also anaerobic. It's been anaerobic since the beginning of cellular life. Only 2 net ATP are produced.

It converts to aerobic energy once oxidative phosphorylation begins, electron transport chain, O2 is picked up as the terminal electron acceptor. Chemiosmosis. This is aerobic because it needs oxygen to occur in the mitochondria. About 36 ATP are made. This is why it's important to stay in an aerobic zone...to get the most benefits of exercise.

wellnow is an idiot there absolutely is anaerobic running

Phoenix wrote:

I also happen to have a PhD--in physiology specializing in metabolic signaling and biochemisty.

Since you have a PhD, then you should be able to provide rigorous, evidence-based refutation of my argument.

I'm waiting.

I call bullshit. If you really had a Ph.D. you would certainly be aware of the research and not need me to point it out to you. You're busted! I suppose you got your degree at the Universtiy of Phoenix, huh? ha ha ha

wellnow wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

I also happen to have a PhD--in physiology specializing in metabolic signaling and biochemisty.

Since you have a PhD, then you should be able to provide rigorous, evidence-based refutation of my argument.

I'm waiting.

I call bullshit. If you really had a Ph.D. you would certainly be aware of the research and not need me to point it out to you. You're busted! I suppose you got your degree at the Universtiy of Phoenix, huh? ha ha ha

But you started this thread and made an interesting point. So for the majority of the people on here who do not have a Ph.D's, you do need to point out the research and explain it in layman's terms. Otherwise, why even start the thread?

All of you need to look up the word "energy" in the dictionary.

actually, you are the one who we can tell is full of it...if you truly had your phd you wouldn't make absolutely silly statements like, 'you are not on my level so there'i have my phd in finance, if i get in argument with someone about finance and they clearly don't know what they are talking about i can just cite them the relevant studies and tell them where I am getting my information and where they might find itPhoenix asked for your evidence and your provided none, seems like he made a legitimate request that you ignored...maybe you are legit but you do not come off sounding that way

wellnow wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

I also happen to have a PhD--in physiology specializing in metabolic signaling and biochemisty.

Since you have a PhD, then you should be able to provide rigorous, evidence-based refutation of my argument.

I'm waiting.

I call bullshit. If you really had a Ph.D. you would certainly be aware of the research and not need me to point it out to you. You're busted! I suppose you got your degree at the Universtiy of Phoenix, huh? ha ha ha

Rising wrote:

Was this addressed to me? I was not arguing with Phoenix whatsoever. I was ASKING him.

Sorry, no, it was to wellnow.

ATP is adenosine triphosphate. ADP (diphosphate) has a third phosphate group added on in a high-energy bond. This arrangement stores the energy gained through metabolism in a form that can be immediately used by proteins for various cellular functions (like muscle contraction). It is a short-lived molecule that can't be stored and is present at low concentration. This is why its supply is exhausted rapidly if not replenished.

midwaste wrote:

spaniel wrote:

TRY to learn something before acting like you know something and arguing with someone like Phoenix who actually knows what he's talking about. Lactate cannot be metabolized without oxygen, so if you're low on oxygen under heavy exercise you are not using it for a fuel source. It is only after oxygen levels increase with decreased/ceased activity that lactate will be recycled as fuel.

you actually sounded like you knew what you were talking about until this paragraph.

Really? Then point out what part of that paragraph is wrong. Or are you just upset because I called out a dimwit who understands nothing of metabolic biochemistry but starts a thread trying to act like an expert?

(By the way, showing I'm wrong will require you to explain how lactate is metabolized to give off energy in the form of ATP without oxygen being involved. I'm interested to see you show this).