Well that's what happens when an underdeveloped 19 yr old is forced to race against a 28 year old grown man who has been training professionally for nearly a decade (in a country renowned for doping).
What do you think would happen if you took an up and coming amateur boxer and threw them in the ring with an experienced pro with 5-6 more years of full-time training? They would get mauled
I remember lining up next to Henry Rono at NCAA cross in Spokane in 77. I had just turned 18 the month before. Talk about a man among boys! This has been going on for years, but at least back then a coach could afford to develop talent. Not in today's world.
With all this talk about foreigners dominating cross in the ncaa… where are all these ridiculous US HS kids? Would think with the plethora of sub 8:45 and sub 4:05 guys in high school that are all supposedly generational talents we would not be getting crushed by Kenyans. Most of these kids aren’t even getting to the dance.
With all this talk about foreigners dominating cross in the ncaa… where are all these ridiculous US HS kids? Would think with the plethora of sub 8:45 and sub 4:05 guys in high school that are all supposedly generational talents we would not be getting crushed by Kenyans. Most of these kids aren’t even getting to the dance.
Nice to see things haven’t really changed - I remember people sh#tting on Lukas Verzbicas when he underperformed expectations at what is now Nuttycombe as a frosh, and he was stronger aerobically than pretty much all the recent studs you’re mentioning (8:29 two-mile, elite triathlete). Point is, the jump in race distance typically takes more acclimatization than we account for, even for the most elite of distance prospects.
With all this talk about foreigners dominating cross in the ncaa… where are all these ridiculous US HS kids? Would think with the plethora of sub 8:45 and sub 4:05 guys in high school that are all supposedly generational talents we would not be getting crushed by Kenyans. Most of these kids aren’t even getting to the dance.
Couldn't that indicate a problem with poor one-size-fits-all coaching?
I agree here. Most college coaches are doing their same BS 10 mile tempos. OSU was known to do their 400 meter stride right before the start of their race and now every team is doing it. So most just do what others do without having a clear understanding why they are doing it. You cant say most high school superstars were over training. That's just dumb. College coaches are better recruiters than coaches. At least most of them. There are a few teams with great coaches and are running their teams very well.
set all records in Oregon h.s. got h.s. 6 mile record nationals thought he would surely eclipse Pre's 2 mile record won bidlett games and1980s Olympics USA saying we are not going to russia
had a lot of injuries but a happy warrior great family as well and then his pickup truck flipped over on icy road
Because the American high school feeder system emphasizes middle distance performance and short term gains built on lower mileage, part-time training methods.
Any coaches advocating for the addition of a track 5000 or moving high school XC to the 6 or 8K distance is branded a madman that will destroy youngsters.
It's hard to turn a high schooler into an all-american in the xc 10k from June to November. That's probably why. Hope that helps.
Tell that to bob kennedy, edward cheserek [ american HS] [ both 1ST as frosh], Lindgren [ could not run as a frosh, but would have won], adam goucher [ 2nd as frosh], Pre [ 3rd as frosh], Ritz and kevin sullivan [ 4th as frosh], Webb [ 11th as frosh but top 8 most of the way and based on region result would have been close to top five].
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Well that's what happens when an underdeveloped 19 yr old is forced to race against a 28 year old grown man who has been training professionally for nearly a decade (in a country renowned for doping).
What do you think would happen if you took an up and coming amateur boxer and threw them in the ring with an experienced pro with 5-6 more years of full-time training? They would get mauled
Quincy Wilson did just fine at the olympics as a HS. XC kids are just soft.
It's hard to turn a high schooler into an all-american in the xc 10k from June to November. That's probably why. Hope that helps.
Tell that to bob kennedy, edward cheserek [ american HS] [ both 1ST as frosh], Lindgren [ could not run as a frosh, but would have won], adam goucher [ 2nd as frosh], Pre [ 3rd as frosh], Ritz and kevin sullivan [ 4th as frosh], Webb [ 11th as frosh but top 8 most of the way and based on region result would have been close to top five].
You are referencing performances from 20+ years ago. Completely different environment. 18 year American freshmen are not physically or mentally mature enough to handle the training and racing that a 23+ year old athlete can. Combined with the jump to 10k being significant, and race execution is different between high school in top level collegiate runners now.
the coaches of the hs teams that are the perennial regional winners at NXN aren’t coaching the kids as a developmental stepping stone for college - they are doing it to win. That’s why some of the top hs juggernaut teams we always talk about are logging rhe 100+ mile weeks over the summer (14-18 year olds!), they are squeezing out the future potential in hs. And the kids embrace this approach because that will get them recruited - very very few college coaches know how to identify undeveloped talent and only recruit based on demonstrated results. There are some real relevant examples of this phenomena from last year’s regional NXN stalwarts on the boys side - duds so far..
(Mile rankings): Powell and Tostenson (3:36/3:56-57)--did nothing in xc, literally or figuratively,
Kitchen (32nd xc, damn good), Noonan, T.J. Hansen, Coombs, Latham, Socarras (800/1500 type), add in Charlie Vause, NXN champ and 8:07 3k, add in Aiden Monistere and Juan Gonzalez, 8:46-47. Really got virtually nothing from these guys at 8k or 10k xc this year, except for Kitchen at BYU. Usually, BYU's contribution is to send them off to get fat for two years before competing, getting more of their prime at BYU and less of it as pros. That is what happened to the high school 5000m record holder, still off. 11 seniors were sub-8:50 in the 2M and only Kitchen has done much. There have been years where freshmen did contribute on the men's side, Nico Young 4th in March of 2021, had time to adjust but also ran fast on the track in December, Dathan Ritzenhein, 4th as a true frosh, and Chris Derrick, but it's rare to be top ten as a true freshmen of the appropriate age. Kitchen was an older senior, by the way.
I looked up tfrrs for those guys and literally found nothing for T.J. Hansen, Coombs, Monistere, Gonzalez, etc. Most guys are going to be redshirted as American frosh at 18 or 19.
Going from HS hero to NCAA zero is the norm for just about all of us lucky enough to have competed in college. It's as tough an adjustment as any, especially in CC.
BS 10M tempos were a staple of Charles Hicks and Ky Robinson, and they did just fine.
That's not the point I was making. Yeah it might work for some but the argument was that one size does not fit all. Most college coaches use the same format for everyone. They are not creative and try to understand their athletes and what works for them. That's a huge issue in the college system. Not saying all but a large percentage just do what others do without knowing the purpose behind it.
the coaches of the hs teams that are the perennial regional winners at NXN aren’t coaching the kids as a developmental stepping stone for college - they are doing it to win. That’s why some of the top hs juggernaut teams we always talk about are logging rhe 100+ mile weeks over the summer (14-18 year olds!), they are squeezing out the future potential in hs. And the kids embrace this approach because that will get them recruited - very very few college coaches know how to identify undeveloped talent and only recruit based on demonstrated results. There are some real relevant examples of this phenomena from last year’s regional NXN stalwarts on the boys side - duds so far..
Of course a coach does not consider HS to be a stepping stone for college. They want a runner to reach his current potential, which does not require overtraining and it will not affect his potential for running in college. If a kid is on the cusp of receiving a scholarship, it would be a huge disservice for the coach to be thinking about the long-term.