Despite being a 7:17 runner he hasn't been good enough to get anywhere near the 5k record. So it mattered less than the 3k record - or was too hard for him? With his injuries now he's likely left it all too late.
As a Jakob fan I’m a little unsure here… If Jakob isn’t as talented and good in the 5000m as Cheptegei it would of course be fun if he broke the WR with better conditions and pacing (fun, because one should now and then root for a clear underdog who exceeds himself). But then we all should acknowledge the asterix behind the new WR, and put even more respect on the Ugandan…
But if Jakob really has the talent and fitness for a real WR it should of course be run under the same conditions that Cheptegei had (for fairness). Unless Jakob totally shatters it….
Huh?
Reread my post, and try to see that it’s possible to have more than a single perspective (in a post)…
Saying that, I think your response is funny, and therefore well posted.
(...) but to suggest he doesn't need to be in some type of career best form is a) a lofty expectation to say the least and b) slightly dismissive/disrespectful of that WR, is it not?
(OP) I think Cheptegei’s record is monumental, but other posters who know far more than I do (I’ve never competed or run at a high level... or at any level, really, just recreationally) kept insisting that a 12:30 or even below was practically a given in that kind of shape.
I have no idea how 3000 and 5000 correlate. In my case, that means nothing, to achieve equivalent performances in the 3000, 5000 and 10000 according to IAAF tables, the 5000 was by far the hardest. In fact, my time is slightly worse, relatively speaking, than my 3000 and 10000
When Cheptegei broke the WR, maybe because few believed he could do it (I remember the discussion here and include myself), his last pacer dropped out not even halfway through the race. And he ran the fastest laps alone.
Jakob could get pacing up to 3000 or 3200, exactly at WR pace or slightly faster, allowing him to “drop off” a bit once he's solo. I’m not sure what the most efficient way to structure that time trial would be. He could get the record without necessarily hitting his peak shape (or Joshua's peak shape for that matter). And, personally, I wouldn’t raise an eyebrow: he’s earned the right to go for it under the best conditions he can set up, and at the end of the day, it’s still his legs that would have to cover 5000 meters in under 12:35.36
I think he'd want a pacer to go as long as possible. Hell of a lot easier to get a pacer to go through 3000 in 7:36 or 7:37 than 7:32 or 33. If you want him to go through 4000 you'd need both a big check (Nike?), an incredible pacer in near top shape to take him through 4k in roughly 10:08-09, and a first couple of pacers who can click off 2:31-32 for a bit to make the job easy for the last pacer. But the thing is that the 4k pacer would have to not care about running a time (if he'd be drafting he'd be able to run an incredible time)
Hypothetical, but I'd want it:
pacer 1: goes through 800-1000 in 2:01-02 to 2:32 pacer 2: goes through 3000 in 7:37 or so (this is the guy who'd need to be in close to 7:27 shape. Tough. Maybe an up and coming Kenyan or Ethiopian) pacer 3: Maybe Gebrhiwet with a lot of $? He'd be 32 which is a little old but he knows he won't be in WR / PR shape any more. Still, I think he could run 10:08 to 10:10, at which point Jakob could close down
I would prefer that Ingebrigtsen’s run, and Chepetegei’s, be apples to apples. How much time would your super pace be worth? If it’s 3-4 seconds, and Ingebrigtsen sets a new WR by 1 second, it seems like it will be tainted.
I would prefer that Ingebrigtsen’s run, and Chepetegei’s, be apples to apples. How much time would your super pace be worth? If it’s 3-4 seconds, and Ingebrigtsen sets a new WR by 1 second, it seems like it will be tainted.
This doesn’t mean I disagree with you per se, but I’m convinced that the person (whoever it is and whenever it happens) who breaks Chep’s WR won’t be paced for only six laps.
it's a bit of a stretch when Cheptegei is 0:2 against Jakob as well as having inferior hardware. (no WC win)
That said, I think Jakob would need to get back to his 2023 self minimum to have a shot at the WR which is an unknown atm.
Yes, Cheptegei hasn’t a WC gold in the 5000m, but you conveniently left out that he has a gold in the 5000m Olympics.
“0-2 against Jakob”? -come on: In those two races Cheptegei was also beaten by quite a few other athletes, also guys with PBs close to a half minute slower than the Ugandaen’s WR. Wouldn’t it be more fair to compare Jakob on top to Cheptegei on top (WRs 5000/10000m, OG gold 5000m, 2 WC golds in the 10000m)?
I’m a dedicated Jakob fan, but in my opinion Jakob hasn’t run a single Good 5000m as an adult! (Of course relatively speaking, compared with the other stellar things he has done). -Not his fault, he has been preoccupied with other distances, and also has had to run 3 global 5000m champs with competitors out of shape (injuries, tired from doubling with the 10000m, sickness) or DNS’s. Proof: Look at the medalists behind Jakob -never guys with top PR’s the actual season…
I wouldn’t call his HM extremely bad. Nobody, even himself, expected to go out and hang on to 58:00 pace after peaking for several months for the 1500.
I think what Jakob meant in the interview was that he would start considering the 5000m WR as a target for 2025, of course that never occurred. There isn’t really anything to change training wise.
I neither call his HM extremely bad. -I call it extremely extremely bad! Also goes for his first 10k of that race, that of course also says something of him as a 10000m runner…
In your next sentence you are cherry picking an outlier narrative. -Because even that you rightly allude to the fact that Jakob stressed that he was very insecure before the race, and feared a blow up, and hadn’t prepared, and it was only 36 hours after his last 1500m in a season with that distance as main focus, he nevertheless wouldn’t rule out that he might set a new WR in this actual HM. And neither would his brother and coach Filip…
I haven’t given up Jakob in the 10k/HM. But I think he and those around him must cut the bs about him first and foremost being a HM man based on his current training. He clearly isn’t, not even in the middle of his base training with high mileage. -Just look at his xc and roads career -a couple of catastrophic bad races (u20 WC xc, his 27.54 roads, his HM included the first 10k) and some unimpressive Euros champs golds (his best was the 7.8k xc in 2024 against some very good competitors who clearly weren’t in shape -2/3 of the race was led by the triathlete Milner (10000m pb 28.36!) and Jakob won with marathoner Crippa (27.10/13.02 PRs) on a safe second… So I think Jakob has to change his training/focus (like Almgren) to be something in the 10k/HM globally…
Lastly: I think Jakob changed his training in the fall 2024 (because a change was mentioned), not to down prioritise the 1500m, but probably because of a need of long distance strength he nevertheless expected wouldn’t ruin anything in the 1500m, on the contrary…
you are baiting the Jakob truthers, but fine I'll bite. Been a while since I called out the Jakob lies.
Jakob CAN'T run a real (Olympic distance) world record. 3:26.00 is safe from him and he knows it. 12:35 is safe from him and he knows it. That's why he has never seriously tried.
2-mile is so soft, it's not even technically a "world record," just a world best. 3000 and mile, and anything indoor, is also soft, too rarely contested for the record to be solid. Jakob knows this, but it doesn't bother him. Why? Obviously he knows both 1500 and 5000 are out of his reach.
The debate on this has ended, or at least should have, with this year's injuries. Those don't go away, their effects accumulate and the athlete is never quite the same as before.
I wouldn’t call his HM extremely bad. Nobody, even himself, expected to go out and hang on to 58:00 pace after peaking for several months for the 1500.
I think what Jakob meant in the interview was that he would start considering the 5000m WR as a target for 2025, of course that never occurred. There isn’t really anything to change training wise.
I neither call his HM extremely bad. -I call it extremely extremely bad! Also goes for his first 10k of that race, that of course also says something of him as a 10000m runner…
In your next sentence you are cherry picking an outlier narrative. -Because even that you rightly allude to the fact that Jakob stressed that he was very insecure before the race, and feared a blow up, and hadn’t prepared, and it was only 36 hours after his last 1500m in a season with that distance as main focus, he nevertheless wouldn’t rule out that he might set a new WR in this actual HM. And neither would his brother and coach Filip…
I haven’t given up Jakob in the 10k/HM. But I think he and those around him must cut the bs about him first and foremost being a HM man based on his current training. He clearly isn’t, not even in the middle of his base training with high mileage. -Just look at his xc and roads career -a couple of catastrophic bad races (u20 WC xc, his 27.54 roads, his HM included the first 10k) and some unimpressive Euros champs golds (his best was the 7.8k xc in 2024 against some very good competitors who clearly weren’t in shape -2/3 of the race was led by the triathlete Milner (10000m pb 28.36!) and Jakob won with marathoner Crippa (27.10/13.02 PRs) on a safe second… So I think Jakob has to change his training/focus (like Almgren) to be something in the 10k/HM globally…
Lastly: I think Jakob changed his training in the fall 2024 (because a change was mentioned), not to down prioritise the 1500m, but probably because of a need of long distance strength he nevertheless expected wouldn’t ruin anything in the 1500m, on the contrary…
This discussion so far has been about the 5000 and there is simply no way of knowing whether he needs to adjust his training for that event. He already has a solid 5000 program year round.
I wouldn’t call his HM extremely bad. Nobody, even himself, expected to go out and hang on to 58:00 pace after peaking for several months for the 1500.
I think what Jakob meant in the interview was that he would start considering the 5000m WR as a target for 2025, of course that never occurred. There isn’t really anything to change training wise.
I neither call his HM extremely bad. -I call it extremely extremely bad! Also goes for his first 10k of that race, that of course also says something of him as a 10000m runner…
In your next sentence you are cherry picking an outlier narrative. -Because even that you rightly allude to the fact that Jakob stressed that he was very insecure before the race, and feared a blow up, and hadn’t prepared, and it was only 36 hours after his last 1500m in a season with that distance as main focus, he nevertheless wouldn’t rule out that he might set a new WR in this actual HM. And neither would his brother and coach Filip…
I haven’t given up Jakob in the 10k/HM. But I think he and those around him must cut the bs about him first and foremost being a HM man based on his current training. He clearly isn’t, not even in the middle of his base training with high mileage. -Just look at his xc and roads career -a couple of catastrophic bad races (u20 WC xc, his 27.54 roads, his HM included the first 10k) and some unimpressive Euros champs golds (his best was the 7.8k xc in 2024 against some very good competitors who clearly weren’t in shape -2/3 of the race was led by the triathlete Milner (10000m pb 28.36!) and Jakob won with marathoner Crippa (27.10/13.02 PRs) on a safe second… So I think Jakob has to change his training/focus (like Almgren) to be something in the 10k/HM globally…
Lastly: I think Jakob changed his training in the fall 2024 (because a change was mentioned), not to down prioritise the 1500m, but probably because of a need of long distance strength he nevertheless expected wouldn’t ruin anything in the 1500m, on the contrary…
I neither call his HM extremely bad. -I call it extremely extremely bad! Also goes for his first 10k of that race, that of course also says something of him as a 10000m runner…
In your next sentence you are cherry picking an outlier narrative. -Because even that you rightly allude to the fact that Jakob stressed that he was very insecure before the race, and feared a blow up, and hadn’t prepared, and it was only 36 hours after his last 1500m in a season with that distance as main focus, he nevertheless wouldn’t rule out that he might set a new WR in this actual HM. And neither would his brother and coach Filip…
I haven’t given up Jakob in the 10k/HM. But I think he and those around him must cut the bs about him first and foremost being a HM man based on his current training. He clearly isn’t, not even in the middle of his base training with high mileage. -Just look at his xc and roads career -a couple of catastrophic bad races (u20 WC xc, his 27.54 roads, his HM included the first 10k) and some unimpressive Euros champs golds (his best was the 7.8k xc in 2024 against some very good competitors who clearly weren’t in shape -2/3 of the race was led by the triathlete Milner (10000m pb 28.36!) and Jakob won with marathoner Crippa (27.10/13.02 PRs) on a safe second… So I think Jakob has to change his training/focus (like Almgren) to be something in the 10k/HM globally…
Lastly: I think Jakob changed his training in the fall 2024 (because a change was mentioned), not to down prioritise the 1500m, but probably because of a need of long distance strength he nevertheless expected wouldn’t ruin anything in the 1500m, on the contrary…
This discussion so far has been about the 5000 and there is simply no way of knowing whether he needs to adjust his training for that event. He already has a solid 5000 program year round.
I agree. But we know Jakob has done a few changes the couple of last years. -One of these seems to be on the track (training) in order to be even more fit in the 1500m (I don’t know the details here), and one seems to be in the base period to strengthen his long racing ability (distances longer than 5000m). -Probably because of much higher level of competition in the Euros xc than before + the shocking weaknesses experienced in the 10k/HM in Copenhagen + probably a concept of 10k training as something that might be useful even for the 1500m…
you are baiting the Jakob truthers, but fine I'll bite. Been a while since I called out the Jakob lies.
Jakob CAN'T run a real (Olympic distance) world record. 3:26.00 is safe from him and he knows it. 12:35 is safe from him and he knows it. That's why he has never seriously tried.
2-mile is so soft, it's not even technically a "world record," just a world best. 3000 and mile, and anything indoor, is also soft, too rarely contested for the record to be solid. Jakob knows this, but it doesn't bother him. Why? Obviously he knows both 1500 and 5000 are out of his reach.
The debate on this has ended, or at least should have, with this year's injuries. Those don't go away, their effects accumulate and the athlete is never quite the same as before.
It is also quite possible that 3000 is his simply his best distance.
Yes, when you reach Jakob’s level, success on the European level isn’t necessarily enough. -One can thus be the best European xc runner, but still be dusted in the WC xc… When I call some races “bad races” that is of course only relative since they are weak compared to Jakob’s many stellar races. -His bad races would be a weaker athlete’s good races -I think you can acknowledge this context if you try..?
This discussion so far has been about the 5000 and there is simply no way of knowing whether he needs to adjust his training for that event. He already has a solid 5000 program year round.
I agree. But we know Jakob has done a few changes the couple of last years. -One of these seems to be on the track (training) in order to be even more fit in the 1500m (I don’t know the details here), and one seems to be in the base period to strengthen his long racing ability (distances longer than 5000m). -Probably because of much higher level of competition in the Euros xc than before + the shocking weaknesses experienced in the 10k/HM in Copenhagen + probably a concept of 10k training as something that might be useful even for the 1500m…
Can you provide links for those claims? The only thing I can see is that he vaguely said in an interview that he has tweaked little things over the years. I don't know how you know these things. Also, he doesn't do track training (High lactic sessions) until the end of January to prepare for the indoor season (which I think may have contributed to his injury) and then in the middle of may to prepare for the outdoor season. Besides, doing a few sessions at higher mmol/L is only going to help him the 5000. Don't forget that it has a considerable anaerobic component (closer to the 3000 than the amount required for the 1500). I see no reason why he cannot attack a fast time in May/June over 5000m, then proceed to lower the mileage and do faster sessions. That's literally what he did in 2021 (12:48 in Florence on June 10th), and in 2023 (7:54 in Paris on June 9th).
The reason why Jakob is so successful is because the 3000m requires both elite levels of vVO2max, blood lactate response to exercise, and CV all at the same time. The only difference between the 3000 and 5000 is that the 5000's main predictor of success is just two of those things (blood lactate response and CV) with vVO2max to a slightly lesser extent. There should be no reason to seriously doubt his aspirations for the 5000m WR based on "physiology." It's similar enough events that it's very possible.