I never get outkicked by people finishing around my same time? Does that mean I always leave time on the table?

Cole Hocker has never been outkicked in a 3:27 race, so he must be good for at least 3:24

Some people have a hard time keeping an even pace. An intermediate step to drop your time is to start your kick earlier. Instead of a 100m kick, try to run an even paced closing 400m etc. Some people find this approach easier than trying to cold turkey switch to even pace. Yes you are likely leaving time on the table if you always pass people in the final 100m.

It means a couple things:

1. Yes, you are leaving SOME time on the table, but so are most people. Most in the 17:xx range aren't running at their absolute limit.

2. You may be better at kicking, some people just can't dig deep or switch gears at the end of the race. That's not a bad thing, but obviously it means nothing when you want to go from 17:xx to 16:xx

I agree with the suggestions to just try starting your kick earlier.

It depends. Which one is Brad and which one is Craig Miller? I think one of them is better at the 800.

This is exactly the type of runner (and size) I was. I used to think the same thing, nobody ever outkicks me but I'm not always able to hang on. Did that mean I wasn't using my energy efficiently? I don't think so. I actually relate a lot to what Geordie Beamish has said about his habit of lagging off the pace and then kicking. It was never intentional, it wasn't losing focus. I simply wasn't able to hang on a steady pace with others but could still produce a kick in the end. I think as more of a fast twitch distance runner (for lack of a better term), racing was about not redlining before the last 200-400m and some days that would look like running with everyone else and kicking but on most days it would look like me dropping off the pace and fighting to catch up at the end.

My best guess as to what is happening in these situations is that the energy systems/requirements to kick would almost never be exhausted before the energy systems required to hang on to a steady pace. My inefficiency in distance races resulted in almost always having a kick. There were many times I would try to run a "smart" race and hang on with the leaders no matter what and I would usually end up redlining and blowing up.

At the level you’re running, are you sure that the other runners are going all out at the finish?

Something good to do at the end of your easier long training runs is to run the last 400m hard. It gets your body used to naturally finishing strong so when it comes to races your body is naturally expecting it.

We would have to know more about your training and your race splits to really know, but the simple answer might be that you're just a good kicker. Maybe you're really an 800/mile guy who has an extra gear that most people don't.

how do i put this. most people who can run some mile or 5k race and kick at the end are pretty fit and above average quality. to sprint at the end of any race you have to be fairly fit and have some natural foot speed, which some people are missing at least one of those.

in theory you could find some time by better pacing, but the precise direction that needs to go is not as obvious as some might say. there are 2 types of misguided people who have the energy to sprint late.

(1) you go out quick, back off, then sprint late. your splits would fall off from mile 1, perhaps fall off each mile. your solution is back off a little on mile 1 and run more even splits.

(2) you don't go out quick, but you take off at the end. your splits might be more even than the other guy. but this scenario could go faster each lap and just have a shorter end kick or not as energetic.

you need to ponder which one you are because they have solutions headed opposite directions. you know how hard you're pushing early, and whether you just hold a pace, or have to back off and rest to get back energy for the end. because one says your pace is too slow other says your pace is too fast.

i think i left out where i see this as a suburban people problem. an optimization issue. compared to some kid grinding around a track to a 530 mile with zero higher gears. compared to some jogger doing a 15 minute mile dragging their butt by your house. if you have the endurance and foot speed to kick at the end of a race you are doing better than most folks and it's just an exercise in tinkering with pace. like i said, the precise direction depends on how your races progress. but be glad you don't have a "best quarter i can run is 70" lack of gears.

No, those of us blessed with a great kick are going to outkick others. It’s in our nature.

This may not be an issue, you might just have a good kick, but yeah training your kick specifically is probably not as important. Try getting out harder in races & see how it goes. If you’re concerned about this it would be helpful to know how fast your last 400-800m of the race actually is.

Or maybe OP is naturally a mid-distance runner. Maybe your 800-1500 is stronger relative to your 5k. If that's the case then how much does it really matter if you're outkicking the people around you when you could run closer to your potential with more threshold/strength training. Lots of different ways to look at this question.

That was me exactly. I could run a mile faster with three steady laps and a fast last one than I could by running even pace. If I tried to run even pace for my PR, I'd blow up. So, it wasn't a question of deliberately holding back or not trying.

Either by physiology and/or training I went over the LT very easily, but had good anaerobic power and lactate (and discomfort) tolerance.

The thing with this is I sometimes positive split and sometimes negative split races, and in both cases I have more of a kick left than the people around me

I started running as an adult, so have very limited experience with anything under 5k. Mile PB is only 5:13, which isn't fast enough for me to think that's it. The one race I actually had the last 400 timed was a track 5k that I closed in about 78. Not that fast, but it was faster than the people finishing around me.

Most of your opponents aren't letsrunners. They might not do strides or drills. They might not even do track workouts.

You are also probably just generally trying harder. Sprinting at the end of a race hurts.

You are also probably more experienced. It wasn't until my junior year in high school that I realized I could sprint the last 3-400m of almost any race no matter how tired I felt. For less experienced runners, this seems impossible. But letsrunners learn to believe in that last lap magic!

Yeah idk then 5:13 is worth 17:55 & you said your 5k is 17-high. Closing a 5k in 78 is essentially running mile pace for you. That doesn't seem too other-worldly. The more even your energy output in a 5k, the more your kick could be dampened. But, even then, runners time & time again are able to find something at the end of races even when they think they're on empty. Maybe you could squeeze a few seconds per mile & then close at something more like 3k pace. Regardless, nothing here seems to be too much of an outlier. 18-flat 5k types are plenty fast, but will have a range of training to get to that result. You'll see people going out too fast and fading late. You'll see people who have the talent to run faster but aren't running a whole lot & won't have much at the finish. It sounds like you're pretty well-rounded at that #. Your reality is that you're at a point where you still have plenty of room for improvement. What will your kick look like if you get down into sub-17 shape? If you think you're saving too much, try racing differently. Do a 3k/2 mile (even 2k) time trial in training and practice redlining.