Building toward 15:30 5000m at 40 - Advice wanted

If you spend to long in any phase you get demising returns, you will plateau and eventually go backwards. So you want to do at least two training cycles a year. Find a different race or races to peak for. That will get you more improvement then just spending a year building mileage. But you could increase your mileage 10mpw each cycle or so til you get where you want. In terms of vo2max work you’re going to want to eventually do some once you close to peaking.

I have a lifetime best of 15:40 from when I was a college runner doing 70-80 mpw with a lot of intensity. I'm 38 now and recently ran a 17 flat off of 30 mpw with over a third of my mileage being done as broken tempos at 10-30 seconds per mile slower than current 5k pace (heavily borrowed from the Modifying the Norwegian Approach thread with sirpoc). I ran 18:49 last summer, 17:40 this spring, 17:20 this summer, and then 17 flat earlier this weekend. I do fast quarters maybe once every six weeks to keep in touch with my speed, maybe 10x400 at a little faster than 5k pace with full rest. At our age, I think training density and recovery become so important. You have to maximize the density of faster running you can do without getting hurt. I think loading up your training with as much controlled LT running as possible should be your goal. I'm targeting 16:20 for age 39 and sub 16 for age 40, and am feeling confident.

You and I both suggested multiple cycles and both got nothing but downvotes.

Successful runners at every level have "Training Blocks" they don't spend a year working only on one adaption.

Twelve months of slow running will give you big adaptions (although after a while less every month), but aren't going to give you much in the way of all the other adaptions you need.

I will guarantee that three 12-14 week cycles following a 5k will take much closer to your goal than a year of slow runs.

Simple formula

One 4-mile tempo run a week - 5:20-5:30 pace

One session on the track - 800's, 1000's or miles at slightly faster than 5k race pace.

One long run - 10-12 miles

Easy runs for everything else.

Don't get injured

Been doing this for the past 6 years (age 39-45) and I've run at or under 15:30 all those years.

3-5 miles morning, hills welcome, easy monday to friday

monday 5 x mile repeats moderately hard - 5 min recovery

wednesday 6 x 600m hill repeats hard walk down

friday 20 x 150m strides full recovery

saturday 5 miles hard

sunday - 12 miles easy

warm up 1.5 miles warm down 1 mile

do this 3 out of 4 weeks per month, and 1 week taper for a couple of days and run a race or time trial.

Agree with this and several others…

1. Just run for a few months to start coming back.

2. But once you’re in decent shape you’ll need specific training. Running sub 5:00 sustained feels fast once you’re > 40.

3. Like some others I used paces from Daniels, and had a tempo, long run and interval day in each week.

3. The older you are the more you need to focus on speed & power. Like a couple of the other posters I got my mile back down into the 4:20s as part of the process. I was better at long stuff, but found the speed sessions like repeat 200s really fun.

Confused. If you did what you say you did the way you did it, why not just do it again?

If you are not confident it’ll work again just train like everyone else. Work the base, work the speed, work the weights, and throw in the occasional race for good measure. There are plenty of of plans on the internet. Why just stick to one aspect of training even tho your goal is far out? Enjoy the way of getting there.

Totally agree with the focus on speed & power. It takes time, but there are no shortcuts. And people who complain "I'm old & can't do it anymore!"...I'd ask, how often do you train it? The answer is telling. Ways I do it:

1) On workout days, 6x flying 30s at max speed before my workout as the 2nd to last thing I do in my warmup. These are not gonna ruin your workout, it's just 2-3s of max power output. No fatigue. Purely training the nervous system.

2) Last part of my warmup: 1-2x flying 100m at 95%. I've worked this down to 12.0-12.5 range since I started running competitively again in my late 30s & a 15.0 felt like an all-out sprint lol.

3) Daniel's R pace stuff. Full recovery to focus on GREAT FORM and efficiency. 200s at 31-33. 400s at 64-67. I'll start a multi-pace workout with some of these, then get in a 2-3 miles at Threshold (which feels like cake after the Rep pace work)

4) 6-10x 800-1600 pace strides between 20-35s on 2 recovery days per week. Make one day up not-to-steep hill.

5) Do other athletic stuff, like jump! 2x a week as part of my warm-up, I jump. 1st grabbed a basketball rim at age 14, can still do it at 40 because I still train it.

That said, as the brojos say, "strength is speed", so you gotta do stuff like above AND the longer work - I do 4-5mi at 5:20 pace as part of my other main weekly workout. Gotta work both ends!

Personally, I respond & do very poorly at 5k pace workouts with substantial volume in training (e.g 5x1k). They leave me knocked-out & unable to do more "volume of quality" in the week. So I only use them as a "predictor-style" workout that tells me where I'm at (not to get me to my destination).

And to the poster saying you need 75mpw+ for sub16....I disagree. If you have two "hard" days per week (two workout days) & one "medium effort" day (a long-ish run)...everything else needs to be short/easy (with those strides mixed in), or off. Recovery becomes WAY more important that miles at 40yo and up. I take a day off per week, and barely hit 40-50mpw.

I ran 14:30's multiple times in my late 30's (on the track). My advice...

Year-round. 55-65MPW. More if you can. At least 1 tempo each week (4 mile tempo was my go-to). Ideally, do 2 tempo/threshold workouts each week if you can. 200's here and there. 14 mile long run each week (up-tempo/good pace). Strides a few times a week. You will need to do this for at least a year or two.

Leading up to your planned races, switch out a threshold workout and do VO2max. 5-7x800 @3K/5k pace. Start with 3mins rest down to 90 secs over the course of 6 weeks while you are racing. After 6 weeks of this, you will likely get stale, so try not to do much more. Try to get in at least 3 fast 5K's before expecting your best. You can also avoid doing a VO2max workout in a given week if you are racing a 5K (it will serve that purpose).

For me, the year-round thresholds (never missed a week) and quicker long-runs had me very aerobically strong. After that, it was also key that the VO2max workouts or beginning races were needed to get me down to where I wanted to run. I was racing 30 secs slower at the start of each season, but hit 14:30's after 3-4 weeks of races/repeat 800s. In addition, I still had some speed (4:17 mile), but I did not train much for the mile. I would throw in 200's, strides, and occasionally some quicker 400s at the end of my workouts.

Doing it all over again? More mileage is always great. Or another threshold each week as well. It just depends what your body can handle to stay injury free. A lot of ways to skin a cat, but this worked.

I agree with most here. I did what you asked about in my 20s, a whole year of easy running other than hopping into road races. Averaged 100 mpw for the year and dropped from mid 18s to 1610 in the 5k which was an over 1 minute PR. I absolutely WOULD NOT do this again now in my 40s. I'm finding a lot more strength work, form work and variable paced work is important for my durability to handle the volume I need for bringing my speed down. Best of luck with your training.

I am 43 years old. I will be real with you in my 20’s I thought
a sub 5 mile was a joke and literally wondered why everyone could not go out and
do it. A few injuries typical life gets in the way slowly but surely your time
off gets longer and longer due to things like being an adult and that sub 5
mile you once thought was a joke quickly becomes climbing mount Everest. At 23
I could break 2:00 for an 800m wearing trainers at 43 I would be lucky to break
3 wearing spikes. Unless you can dedicate serious time training a 15:30 at 40 is
not realistic.

It may have been mention in one of the posts, but I did not read them all. My take here is a bit different. Do EVERY THING that you cn to stay healthy - physiclly and mentally.

* proper sleep (weekend naps)

** Proper diet - generally clean healthy real food w/ some supplements

*** HYDRATION

**** Work on your lower legs - foam roller, "The Stick," massage gun, static and dynamic stretching, etc

***** Sensible use of the weight room - for both strength and circuit training

****** Form/spring drills

I definitely would not advocate for a year of easy miles. I was running sub 15 on the road in my early-mid 40's off 40-50MPW and agree with soulmatetodd and byumiler. My training was almost identical including a weekly 4 mile tempo at 5.20ish. Consistency is key, get the key sessions in (and don't work too hard in them), the rest is easy miles. No need to overthink it. I didn't worry about diet, hydration, sleep, stretching, foam rolling, any of that stuff. I'm sure it all helps but at this level, the sessions are the staple that will get the results.

Dang! All of those are impressive, I think 439 the most so. I ran 415 long ago and can tell my speed has dropped precipitously in the decades since (father time undefeated, etc and my lapse in running sped that along). I don't train much, threshold twice a week but can still gut out a sub 18 5k but sub 5 would be a BIG ask for me now in mid 40s. To me, given the specialized speed training and endurance you NEED to have the memory and efficiency to drop that speed, that's the most impressive of all of these very impressive times at 40 years old. . Strideouts twice a week (the usual 150 buildup, all out are truly requisite and I think you'd be wise to do at least once a week some stuff on speed endurance (400 reps at just below race pace imo the best and most approachable).

Did you always run or just pick this up? Letsrun skews waaaaay on the fast side, with apparently mid 40 year olds getting to a 15:00 with a year of training. Numbers don't lie - you would have been exceptionally talented if you raced young having done this on old man cardiovascular and legs.

unless you’re Ryan f$&@ Hall, you’re not going to run your all-time best a minute and 15 seconds faster at 40 years old this makes no sense.

But he claims never to have done mileage, so he has to do that while also maintaining speed somewhat.

"There are limits on running without air, stamina can be built almost indefinitely."

Magill's "Solving the 5k Puzzle" was such a good article I printed off a hard copy before cached and historical pages went away from Google...Magill broke it down into easy to understand, progressive sessions.

At least for me, I saw gains in my 5k time this year due to hill training.