I am a bit disappointed that we never got to see what time she could've truly run if she tried.
I reckon she had a high 1:51 in her legs, but we'll never know.
What's the big deal about a biological male running "high 1:51"? In some states that's not even fast enough to win a boy's high school state championship.
This is where they need a 3rd category- Hermaphrodites and Transgender could be a division of their own.
Give me a break. Track as a professional sport exists as entertainment. Very few fans are interested in watching a "hermaphrodites and transgender" race.
"my body produces an elevated amount of testosterone"
Semenya still refuses to be totally honest. Semenya keeps spreading the same misinformation that reporters have used for years saying "my body produces an elevated level of testosterone. " 100% false! Semenya's testes produces the same NORMAL amount of testosterone that all other biological males produce.
This is where they need a 3rd category- Hermaphrodites and Transgender could be a division of their own.
Give me a break. Track as a professional sport exists as entertainment. Very few fans are interested in watching a "hermaphrodites and transgender" race.
You can take a break anytime you want and you don't need my permission. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned I don't care if they have a category. They should not race against women (trans or herm.)
They can race against men or not race at all for all I care. I'm just addressing an issue that is becoming a problem.
i guess i have to draw people a map. lawsuits cost money. might be out of money or sick of spending it on lawyers for the principle that she'd like to try to compete aged 34. particularly considering with trump in office and th next games here, the international vibe is probably nothing changes until after the 2028 Olympics in Oklahoma City (and also some events in LA). at which point semenya's 38 and the next olympics are 4 years beyond that.
to be crude about it, they might put semenya on the birth certificate as the second parent, but she contributed nothing biologically to it. that's not her jizz making the baby. she has none. it is more akin to the other partner in a lesbian couple whose wife has a kid with a sperm donor.
Give me a break. Track as a professional sport exists as entertainment. Very few fans are interested in watching a "hermaphrodites and transgender" race.
Honestly, as far as I'm concerned I don't care if they have a category.
You wrote "they need a 3rd category" followed by another post where you wrote "I don't care if they have a category." You're obviously very confused and you contradict yourself. Make up your mind first and then post second.
and to be punchy about it, i am surprised some "bro" hasn't stepped up and made the mirror argument. "wait, i don't see a d*ck, how is that a man?" since we're trying real hard to find things, one of the key dude features is missing. how are you giving a male birth certificate to someone without a johnson.
taken to the nth degree intersex would then have no home.
i say this in part because the definitional game here reminds me of how black or indian folks used to be excluded from mainstream based on having the proverbial "one drop of blood." if anyone remembered you having a black relative, you were black. and could be segregated for it.
because you seem to be looking very very hard for excuses to exclude complicated people, erring on the side of tools that might actually exclude women who have "one drop of hormones" too many.
i mean, are we seriously saying the defining feature of a male are "balls you can't see sucked all the way up in there, with no jizz in them, but they got hormones, and hormones make me angry?"
i mean, i thought what decided sex was reproduction and who gets who pregnant but now apparently being hormonal suffices.
that's how badly you want to screw with people is it doesn't matter if they have a gash and a female birth certificate, and any nuts they have are not visible walking around, can't produce sperm. "but the hormones."
ok, dude, whatever. you're just trying real hard to be a d*ck. and to be clear, since we can all see it, you must be a dude. and we don't need to run a bunch of tests.
the fairness discussion tends to be misleading. i think the "trans who wins state" is rare. most of the "out" trans athletes are midpack finishing kids who put up what would be JV or junior high boys times, and can't run the table on actual girls.
it's insulting to women, really. we had a state competitive girls' XC team. they would beat the weaker boys XC kids in 5k time trials. one of them competed to win state. to pronounce her in fear of some JV level boy who just wants to compete as a girl like they dress all day, is insulting to the top girls, who know they are talented and can whoop any old JV boy. they don't need your protection.
now, if what we saw happen was the "boys" took over, fine. that's not what actually happens. it's usually 1 kid in 1 event out of many, finishing all over the place, as girls do. they should be eligible to finish last, 50th, 3rd, or 1st. personally i hear of plenty of mediocre trans finishes and it makes complete sense to me, as the sort of boy who wants to dress as a girl is not usually some hunk of man into working out -- OR THEY WOULDN'T WANT TO WEAR A DRESS. isn't the point they are effeminate enough to want to be a girl all day? and you see that as an athletic threat?
last, i wouldn't be surprised if there are a few random last place trans kids no one fusses about at all. which gets at what this is really about -- winning.
bluntly, to me, this stuff is politics, not just of the conservative kind, but of the "my kid is getting on select and getting that college scholarship, and yours isn't" kind. and it's not entirely rational, it's the gaines kid finishing 5th but swearing a trans kid denied her a medal -- which doesn't even make math sense and is pretty bad for a college graduate.
last last, if i was getting really punchy, this is more about trans hate, akin to the obnoxious bathroom bills and such, but somehow more attractive to voters. who i guess think boys are faster than girls. but then don't ask, do the fastest boys actually ever compete as girls. because the fastest girls in school would usually beat 99% of the HS also. so you better be f*cking fast to beat them. which is the fundamental fib here. that the girls are that much weaker. or that the boys are all faster.
it's only the top few boys at school who are faster than everyone, both sexes. your average football player might lose a footrace with a good track girl. so maybe they don't need your broad protection that much.
now, if the wide receiver corps of the football team that all run 11 flat 100m suddenly decided they will do girls track, we could revisit it. but that's not what happens. because they are macho men who play football.
I'm surprised by this. What the heck was the point of the appeal this summer if you aren't going to keep on going.
But thank goodness. I think Caster was put in an awful situation but common sense has prevailed. A penis isn't what makes men better athletes. It's testosterone from testes. If you have testes, you need to be in the open (aka male) division. The protected division - aka female - should be fo xx people without testes.
The females are in the protected division. You are correct but it just sounds a bit sexist. You are not wrong though.
What sounded "sexist" about this again? Really, what was the sexist part?
Worth asking why the male division is deemed “open” given no bonafide woman would compete it it.
Don't rail against the solution when its staring you right in the face. I've been saying this for years now: the problem we have is that we call the divisions "men" and "women" to differentiate, and then people get caught up in "what is a woman?" when gender and biology are two different things.
Its the "XX" and "Open" categories period. Testosterone during puberty and after contributes to massive advantages in sport. The science is there, it is undisputable
Why do we create categories in sport? Why do we have rules in sport? Because we're trying to create a level playing field for competitors, and having intersex humans competing against XX isn't fair: there are advantages of testosterone production from testes, whether internal or external that create an imbalance in power and speed.
We need to change the nomenclature on the divisions, not stop people from doing sport. Just creating a version of the competition that is as fair as we, in 2025, can make it.
Its the "XX" and "Open" categories period. Testosterone during puberty and after contributes to massive advantages in sport. The science is there, it is undisputable
For the umpteenth time, the chromosome and hormone levels are separate issues. Maria Jose Martinez Patino was born with Y chromosome and internal testes. But she her body does not respond to testosterone.
Babies who have testes that produce DHT (dihydrotesterone) from testosterone will develop a penis and scrotum (which most do). Babies who have testes that do not produce DHT will develop a vulva (the female external genitalia).
Some babies who produce DHT have problems responding to the testicular hormones: PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome) CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome)
Both of those conditions will result in the absence of male external anatomy and presence of female external anatomy (Caster's situation), or anatomy that is in between male and female, rated by the Prader scale.
I understand the the reality of partisanship, but this is the biology/science that everyone benefits from knowing.
Babies who have testes that produce DHT (dihydrotesterone) from testosterone will develop a penis and scrotum (which most do). Babies who have testes that do not produce DHT will develop a vulva (the female external genitalia).
Some babies who produce DHT have problems responding to the testicular hormones: PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome) CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome)
Both of those conditions will result in the absence of male external anatomy and presence of female external anatomy (Caster's situation), or anatomy that is in between male and female, rated by the Prader scale.
I understand the the reality of partisanship, but this is the biology/science that everyone benefits from knowing.
Many folks here crying “soyence” can’t tell science apart from a belief or a definition. They think saying “XY chromosomes” means they are on the side of science. They assume sex is binary and that that belief is scientific, never mind that most can’t define their underlying binary discriminant nor realize that any definition is just that, a definition.
Going to go into the weeds pedantic here: the cheek swab to check for SRY gene is not exactly a "test". It is a screen. If a person is found with it, it leads to more investigation by medical personnel that leads to a diagnosis and then a determination of eligibility.
While rare there are cases where the SRY gene is present but no male development took place.
the fairness discussion tends to be misleading. i think the "trans who wins state" is rare. most of the "out" trans athletes are midpack finishing kids who put up what would be JV or junior high boys times, and can't run the table on actual girls.
it's insulting to women, really. we had a state competitive girls' XC team. they would beat the weaker boys XC kids in 5k time trials. one of them competed to win state. to pronounce her in fear of some JV level boy who just wants to compete as a girl like they dress all day, is insulting to the top girls, who know they are talented and can whoop any old JV boy. they don't need your protection.
now, if what we saw happen was the "boys" took over, fine. that's not what actually happens. it's usually 1 kid in 1 event out of many, finishing all over the place, as girls do. they should be eligible to finish last, 50th, 3rd, or 1st. personally i hear of plenty of mediocre trans finishes and it makes complete sense to me, as the sort of boy who wants to dress as a girl is not usually some hunk of man into working out -- OR THEY WOULDN'T WANT TO WEAR A DRESS. isn't the point they are effeminate enough to want to be a girl all day? and you see that as an athletic threat?
last, i wouldn't be surprised if there are a few random last place trans kids no one fusses about at all. which gets at what this is really about -- winning.
bluntly, to me, this stuff is politics, not just of the conservative kind, but of the "my kid is getting on select and getting that college scholarship, and yours isn't" kind. and it's not entirely rational, it's the gaines kid finishing 5th but swearing a trans kid denied her a medal -- which doesn't even make math sense and is pretty bad for a college graduate.
last last, if i was getting really punchy, this is more about trans hate, akin to the obnoxious bathroom bills and such, but somehow more attractive to voters. who i guess think boys are faster than girls. but then don't ask, do the fastest boys actually ever compete as girls. because the fastest girls in school would usually beat 99% of the HS also. so you better be f*cking fast to beat them. which is the fundamental fib here. that the girls are that much weaker. or that the boys are all faster.
it's only the top few boys at school who are faster than everyone, both sexes. your average football player might lose a footrace with a good track girl. so maybe they don't need your broad protection that much.
now, if the wide receiver corps of the football team that all run 11 flat 100m suddenly decided they will do girls track, we could revisit it. but that's not what happens. because they are macho men who play football.
I find the argument about it not being a big problem to be...well problematic. In fact you seem to contradict yourself by saying that if we reached some number (please give what that number or percentage should be) then it could be a problem. To me if it is a problem at 1000 then it is a problem at 1.
