It’s not a 2:04:58 day with my shoes. But with your shoes, it is.
I don't know, something about the quote rubs me the wrong way. On one hand, Hall is implying that conditions were very good the day he ran 2:04. And he's saying that conditions yesterday were tougher.
Plus, bringing up the shoes is fair game; they really do make a multiple minute difference. And even ignoring Boston 2011, Hall's career was really exceptional, better than Mantz or any current US marathoner.
On the other hand, Hall's comment goes beyond just saying that Mantz has advantages which he himself didn't have. He isn't just saying "I had some advantages in 2011, runners today have different ones, and they cancel out". He's saying that 2:04:58 would be impossible without the new shoes, but possible with them. In other words, if Mantz had run faster than 2:04:58, according to Hall, the only possible explanation would have been the shoes.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, and it was just an inspirational quip. What do you all think?
Couple guys who are familiar with each other exchanging playful barbs and none of them took too seriously. So of course, there's a LRC thread full of joggers analyzing it and projecting feelings onto it. Classic.
all ryan is saying is that he has teh ability and tools to run 204, not everything needs to be dissected.
Nah, all he was saying was 2:04 isn’t possible without the shoes, just as it wasn’t possible without a 20mph tailwind (even though guys were legitimately running 2:04 back in Hall’s era). Everyone knows Mantz is capable of 2:04 or better with the shoes. It’s not a “revelation.” He has run 59:15 in the half on a hilly course.
all ryan is saying is that he has teh ability and tools to run 204, not everything needs to be dissected.
Nah, all he was saying was 2:04 isn’t possible without the shoes, just as it wasn’t possible without a 20mph tailwind (even though guys were legitimately running 2:04 back in Hall’s era). Everyone knows Mantz is capable of 2:04 or better with the shoes. It’s not a “revelation.” He has run 59:15 in the half on a hilly course.
except that Hall has never once credited the wind for his time
Nah, all he was saying was 2:04 isn’t possible without the shoes, just as it wasn’t possible without a 20mph tailwind (even though guys were legitimately running 2:04 back in Hall’s era). Everyone knows Mantz is capable of 2:04 or better with the shoes. It’s not a “revelation.” He has run 59:15 in the half on a hilly course.
except that Hall has never once credited the wind for his time
To the extent that that’s true, then it even more so reinforces the point about the passive aggressiveness of the comment.
Hall also grew up at high altitude, which seems to be a big advantage in the marathon as far as depth. I don’t think it’s an accident that our top current marathoners also grew up at relatively high altitude.
He wasn’t wrong, but why focus on 2:04:58? Why not just come out and say it’s a course record day with “your shoes?” Why not acknowledge it was a 2:04:58 day only if you grew up at high elevation, had a 20 mph tailwind, and took thyroid medication? Remove anyone of those parameters, and 2:04:58 never happens. Not even close. This is why it’s so stupid.
seems like he was implying the conditions were excellent for running really fast on the day Hall ran 2:04:58 (and they were, 20 mph tailwind) and there is no way he (or Mantz) could have done that on a day like this past Monday, however the shoes + favorable weather made it possible to run that fast... I mean he was obv right, Mantz was within seconds of that time. Hall never came across as arrogant, quite the opposite.
I mean, take away the headwind, and Mantz is faster than 2:04:58. Give him a 20 mph tailwind, and he’s under 2:03. Had Mantz run 2:02:58 with a 20 mph tailwind, are we really going to recognize that as an “American best?” No way.
I don't know, something about the quote rubs me the wrong way. On one hand, Hall is implying that conditions were very good the day he ran 2:04. And he's saying that conditions yesterday were tougher.
Plus, bringing up the shoes is fair game; they really do make a multiple minute difference. And even ignoring Boston 2011, Hall's career was really exceptional, better than Mantz or any current US marathoner.
On the other hand, Hall's comment goes beyond just saying that Mantz has advantages which he himself didn't have. He isn't just saying "I had some advantages in 2011, runners today have different ones, and they cancel out". He's saying that 2:04:58 would be impossible without the new shoes, but possible with them. In other words, if Mantz had run faster than 2:04:58, according to Hall, the only possible explanation would have been the shoes.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, and it was just an inspirational quip. What do you all think?
Couple guys who are familiar with each other exchanging playful barbs and none of them took too seriously. So of course, there's a LRC thread full of joggers analyzing it and projecting feelings onto it. Classic.
This.
There is an instagram story where Clayton, Conner and Ryan are going down a stairwell and Ryan is talking to Conner about each of his prior Boston marathons. Ryan ran Boston 4 times and never finished faster than 2:08:41 in his other 3. It's a short clip but he mentions "I blew up here", "I struggled with this hill", etc.
In other interviews, Conner has referenced talking to Ryan a lot about races, including Boston and Houston, and Ryan congratulating him after breaking the half record.
As friends, do they probably quip at each other a bit? Sure. But people are reading so much drama into a situation where there really is none. Ryan Hall knows that the weather was exceptional in 2011 because Ryan Hall ran Boston 4 times and never came close to that time in the other three. All he is saying is that you don't have the exceptional tailwind, but you may be able to make up for it with the changes, not just in shoes but also fueling, nutrition, training, etc.
And he's not wrong. With 2011 shoes, fueling, Mantz couldn't run a 2:05 in this weather. He'd probably run a 2:09 like Ryan Hall did in prior years. But with this weather, no tailwind and a slight headwind, Ryan Hall was also not going to run a 2:05. He would run a 2:09 like he usually did.
People are strangely divisive about this. I guarantee you that Mantz and Hall aren't getting into arguments about "who is the greatest?" Mantz probably doesn't think he's surpassed Hall yet, and Hall is cheering for Mantz to succeed as well. Angry letsrunners don't speak for them.
Hall is a super positive guy. He would never say something like that with bad intent. This goes for all of the big three (Hall, Ritz, Webb). All of that trash talk and slights you see on social media with Kerr/Jakob/etc.. are common for this younger generation -- not the OG crew from the early 2000s.
Those guys just busted their *ss and gave love and respect to each other in competition. US distance runners were getting their butts handed to them in the international stage and that brought everyone together.
It’s not a 2:04:58 day with my shoes. But with your shoes, it is.
I don't know, something about the quote rubs me the wrong way. On one hand, Hall is implying that conditions were very good the day he ran 2:04. And he's saying that conditions yesterday were tougher.
Plus, bringing up the shoes is fair game; they really do make a multiple minute difference. And even ignoring Boston 2011, Hall's career was really exceptional, better than Mantz or any current US marathoner.
On the other hand, Hall's comment goes beyond just saying that Mantz has advantages which he himself didn't have. He isn't just saying "I had some advantages in 2011, runners today have different ones, and they cancel out". He's saying that 2:04:58 would be impossible without the new shoes, but possible with them. In other words, if Mantz had run faster than 2:04:58, according to Hall, the only possible explanation would have been the shoes.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, and it was just an inspirational quip. What do you all think?
Yeah, I thought the same thing. It wasn't a direct "jab" or "insult" toward Conner, but somewhat a back-handed dig. The one thing that previous generations of retired athletes need to understand is that their times will no longer be relevant. Technology in all areas of athletics have improved drastically, and to compare times from 10, 20, 30 years ago aren't accurate. The only true comparison is that of winning titles and making U.S. National teams. These accomplishments are timeless and reflect performances of the era of which they were accomplished. For Ryan or anyone comparing his time of 2:04.58 in 2011 to that of Connor's 2:05.58 doesn't work. Shoes, weather, etc... are just a few variables that affect the outcome. Who won the race, and or placed higher are the most accurate, especially on a course like Boston where weather (wind) can be a substantial factor.
Don't get me wrong, Ryan ran an incredible race that probably would've been faster had he been wearing super shoes, but then again, there was substantial tailwind throughout the race that affected his performance.