So is it safe to say he's our second best marathoner at the moment?
He’s running the second best, but Clayton Young has the pedigree even if his halves haven’t been great. I’d say he’s positioned for spot #3 with Albertson, Simbassa and probably Maier soon joining them.
Love his approach to training. I'm intrigued and looking forward to seeing where he goes from here. I tried to summarize this training block. I did this very quickly and cannot guarantee the accuracy of anything. If someone wants to try to create a more meticulous summary, feel free.
first 7 weeks all easy: 0mi, 5mi, 19mi, 26mi, 50mi, 51mi, 71mi
week 8: 85mi two days with 1.5mi @ a little slower than MP. long run 16mi progress to slower than MP
week 9: 89mi workout 1: 1mi, 2mi, .75mi @ ~MP to slower than MP. long run 18mi pushing stroller progression 2mi at 5:10
week 10: 100mi 5mi tempo @ MP / a little faster (probably intervals actually? forgot to check if moving time and elapsed time were different). 18mi long run
week 11: 88mi workout 1: 2mi warmup. 8mi @ ~6:00. 3mi @ ~4:50. long run: 18mi with a few miles at ~5:30
week 12: 95mi workout 1: something like 9 x 2min on, 1min off (5:30 / 7:00). workout 2: 4mi warmup, 2mi @ 6:15 (rest), 2mi @ 6:15 (rest), 3mi @ 4:58. 18miler w/ 4mi @ ~5:30
week 13: 87mi first workout: 5 x 800m (400 jog) @ 5:30? 3 x 300m @ 5:10?. second workout: 5.5mi @ ~4:58 pace (probably 1mi intervals? moving time and elapsed time big gap). 18mi progression last 4mi in 5:20's
week 14: 96mi traveled a lot. mostly easy mileage. no real workout. randomly a 5:11 mile with 86ft elevation gain
week 15: 70mi. all easy mileage except Houston HM: 1:01:23
week 16: 102mi. you guessed it... all easy mileage. sometimes gets to ~6:00 pace. 20mi long run now
week 17: 95mi. 4mi tempo - first mile at 4:52 then slowed to ~5:20 pace. 20miler over a big hill had a 6:22 mile with 158 gain. did 2mi @ 5:10.
week 18: 113mi. no workouts. he's been at altitude now btw (he does 6 weeks at altitude) and these are hillier runs. many of them very cold, so have to imagine heavier clothing. sometimes doing ~6:00 pace, not just jogging all the time.
week 19: 108mi. sort of workout tempo: 5:31 up 83ft, 5:27, 4:58, 5:10, 5:19 downhill. on snow very cold.
week 20: 90mi. indoor track workout "Did something like 4xmile, 1200, 800. Think it went 5:06, 4:52, 4:36, 4:39, don’t really remember the 1200 but I think maybe 73s and then the 800 middle 4 was at pacer pace". paced through 1000m for a 4:01 mile at altitude. randomly did a ~4:45mi in one of his doubles. 18miler got down to 5:10 on the downhill, half mile at ~4:30 pace on downhill (messing around w/ friends?)
week 21: 64mi. 3 x 1mi on the track + 1 x 800m? At ~4:50 pace? HM 1:01:16
week 22: 71mi. 16mi long run with ~1200m at 4:45 pace to catch up with friends. otherwise easy
week 23: race week just easy runs. 2:07 hilly marathon
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
So is it safe to say he's our second best marathoner at the moment?
I think he's definitely put the marathoning world on notice. But it's hard to rank him without having raced a major. He doesn't even have the second best PR because that's Mantz (first is Biya). I would take a wait and see approach.
Good takeaways, I listened to it and thought the same.
I think just looking at Strava we might miss that the dude is running in bone-crushingly cold (and slow) conditions. It sounds like he ran in sub-20 degree and snowy weather a lot, which might mean more of his running is a harsher test than it appears. Throw in that it sounds like he hikes, XC skis, and bikes...the guy's doing a lot of things to be fit.
Another thing is the rojo axiom that racing is the best workout. The guy put together two outstanding half marathons on January 19th and March 2nd. He also did some pacing on the Big Sky indoor track. It might seem like he's low on volume of workouts and such but he did those extremely high quality efforts.
Other interesting aspect is when he got 26th at NCAA XC Nats, he famously was in 204th one kilometer in:
Just commented this on a different thread but I also saw he mentions the poor conditions on his Strava quite frequently. A lot of people are going to say that "his training works for him" and that he shouldn't change it but I simply refuse to believe that this kid can't be made better by moving out of a place that is sub zero and buried in snow for half the year and incorporating more high end aerobic work. If he did he might be a 2:05 guy.
It's not sub 0 and buried in snow half the year. The coldest month in Bozeman is December/January and their average high is 35, average low is 15. Tons of other states with runners that cold. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan are colder among other states. And he's from Illinois and was training a lot in Illinois the past several months. Illinois is not colder than many many other states. So the excuse that he's just tough because of running in cold is not a good reason to why he's running fast. And running 7:30 pace in 20 degree weather 90% of his running is still easy training. There are a lot of 2:10-2:15 runners who train way harder and more volume. If they all go slower and do less will they become 2:08 guys? I highly doubt it. This whole thing makes no sense. Maybe if Matt did better training he'd be a 2:06 guy, that's a more reasonable take on this. He's an aerobic beast who has been running 61 half marathons and 2:10/2:07 on vary modest training. There are other people in the world running 58's and 59's and 2:06 or faster. Maybe he could be that if he did more intense training.
Just commented this on a different thread but I also saw he mentions the poor conditions on his Strava quite frequently. A lot of people are going to say that "his training works for him" and that he shouldn't change it but I simply refuse to believe that this kid can't be made better by moving out of a place that is sub zero and buried in snow for half the year and incorporating more high end aerobic work. If he did he might be a 2:05 guy.
It's not sub 0 and buried in snow half the year. The coldest month in Bozeman is December/January and their average high is 35, average low is 15. Tons of other states with runners that cold. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan are colder among other states. And he's from Illinois and was training a lot in Illinois the past several months. Illinois is not colder than many many other states. So the excuse that he's just tough because of running in cold is not a good reason to why he's running fast. And running 7:30 pace in 20 degree weather 90% of his running is still easy training. There are a lot of 2:10-2:15 runners who train way harder and more volume. If they all go slower and do less will they become 2:08 guys? I highly doubt it. This whole thing makes no sense. Maybe if Matt did better training he'd be a 2:06 guy, that's a more reasonable take on this. He's an aerobic beast who has been running 61 half marathons and 2:10/2:07 on vary modest training. There are other people in the world running 58's and 59's and 2:06 or faster. Maybe he could be that if he did more intense training.
Maybe I exaggerated the weather conditions but yes this is exactly my point. It is a logically untenable position to claim that he would not be a better runner for running in better conditions and running more quality. I'm not even talking about tons more mileage and I'm especially not talking about picking it up on easy days. That is not necessary. What is necessary is more targeted pace work at MP, threshold, and just a bit of 5K-10K pace.
An exceptionally low percentage of Richtman's mileage is quality work. Just nudging that percentage up will produce benefits. You cannot convince me otherwise. Its physiologically impossible for that to be untrue. The only case where it would be untrue is if he were injury prone, but his mileage indicates otherwise; or, if he was prone to overtraining, but this is easily fixed by eating more calories.
Long story short he has the potential to be in the top 3 of American marathoners of all time if he just does more quality. I don't think that's a hot take or should be particularly controversial.
What I see is hardly any paces at truly MP (4:52/mi), and let's not even mention Threshold pace. Next to zero. Only 4 weeks above 100mi. No strides. No lifting. Hmm.
I run in Bozeman through the winter. What people in warmer climates may not understand is that you have to put on two or three layers when it is 0F and this slows you down 30 seconds to a minute per mile. Once you factor that in maybe his training doesn't seem so slow?
It's not sub 0 and buried in snow half the year. The coldest month in Bozeman is December/January and their average high is 35, average low is 15. Tons of other states with runners that cold. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan are colder among other states. And he's from Illinois and was training a lot in Illinois the past several months. Illinois is not colder than many many other states. So the excuse that he's just tough because of running in cold is not a good reason to why he's running fast. And running 7:30 pace in 20 degree weather 90% of his running is still easy training. There are a lot of 2:10-2:15 runners who train way harder and more volume. If they all go slower and do less will they become 2:08 guys? I highly doubt it. This whole thing makes no sense. Maybe if Matt did better training he'd be a 2:06 guy, that's a more reasonable take on this. He's an aerobic beast who has been running 61 half marathons and 2:10/2:07 on vary modest training. There are other people in the world running 58's and 59's and 2:06 or faster. Maybe he could be that if he did more intense training.
Maybe I exaggerated the weather conditions but yes this is exactly my point. It is a logically untenable position to claim that he would not be a better runner for running in better conditions and running more quality. I'm not even talking about tons more mileage and I'm especially not talking about picking it up on easy days. That is not necessary. What is necessary is more targeted pace work at MP, threshold, and just a bit of 5K-10K pace.
An exceptionally low percentage of Richtman's mileage is quality work. Just nudging that percentage up will produce benefits. You cannot convince me otherwise. Its physiologically impossible for that to be untrue. The only case where it would be untrue is if he were injury prone, but his mileage indicates otherwise; or, if he was prone to overtraining, but this is easily fixed by eating more calories.
Long story short he has the potential to be in the top 3 of American marathoners of all time if he just does more quality. I don't think that's a hot take or should be particularly controversial.
Maybe. But I sort of roll me eyes at people who see what a really successful runner is doing and say "but if he did it like I think he should he'd be even better." Not fixing things that aren't broken is maybe one of my life's philosophies and I've seen enough people do really well but try to tweak things in hopes of doing even better and not do as well. I'm sure there are people who make some adjustments and do get faster but it's just presumptuous for someone to think he knows more about how to run under say, 2:10 for a marathon, unless the person has done it himself or coached others who have.
-Don’t tune in for a detailed breakdown of training philosophies. He pretty much says he does what works for him, and that’s about it. -Doesn’t look at others for training ideas either, he’s just aware enough to know his isn’t necessarily conventional. -He doesn’t worry about the minutia of training or racing, doesn’t do strides, learned about bi-carb 3 weeks ago for example. -Doesn’t seem overly emotionally invested with the sport, or at least keeps it at a healthy level. He certainly enjoys running, but isn’t going to lose a lot of sleep with a bad race if/when that happens. -What’s next is up in the air, he talks about Chicago being the logical next goal race. But nothing inked.
Overall it was a good conversation, dude seems totally normal and well adjusted. There’s a few more details he gets into about his training. Yes he posts everything on Strava. And he prioritizes recovery almost above everything.
Good takeaways, I listened to it and thought the same.
I think just looking at Strava we might miss that the dude is running in bone-crushingly cold (and slow) conditions. It sounds like he ran in sub-20 degree and snowy weather a lot, which might mean more of his running is a harsher test than it appears. Throw in that it sounds like he hikes, XC skis, and bikes...the guy's doing a lot of things to be fit.
Another thing is the rojo axiom that racing is the best workout. The guy put together two outstanding half marathons on January 19th and March 2nd. He also did some pacing on the Big Sky indoor track. It might seem like he's low on volume of workouts and such but he did those extremely high quality efforts.
Other interesting aspect is when he got 26th at NCAA XC Nats, he famously was in 204th one kilometer in:
Good takeaways, I listened to it and thought the same.
I think just looking at Strava we might miss that the dude is running in bone-crushingly cold (and slow) conditions. It sounds like he ran in sub-20 degree and snowy weather a lot, which might mean more of his running is a harsher test than it appears. Throw in that it sounds like he hikes, XC skis, and bikes...the guy's doing a lot of things to be fit.
Another thing is the rojo axiom that racing is the best workout. The guy put together two outstanding half marathons on January 19th and March 2nd. He also did some pacing on the Big Sky indoor track. It might seem like he's low on volume of workouts and such but he did those extremely high quality efforts.
Other interesting aspect is when he got 26th at NCAA XC Nats, he famously was in 204th one kilometer in:
Well as far as racing is the best workout, this is easier to incorporate if you are primarily a marathoner. So Benji Durden did this, and he might have been similar in talent to Richtman. Durden would often, if I recall correctly, race a 5K or 10K, even every week, as he found it easier to motivate himself to do that than a speed workout by himself. And sometimes it could be a 10 miler or half marathon, or whatever, and then Durden usually did decent mileage, but nothing extraordinary. He also often ran in a sweat suit in the heat of Georgia, which might have rendered his 10 mile run at 7 minute pace a bit more challenging than Strava would have indicated, had it been around then, maybe another potential similarity with Matt running in the cold.
From the accounts that I have read and remembered, he ran in MULTIPLE sweat-suits as a form increased resistance training.
But just, work with me. If a 25 year old Japanese runner got 2:07:57 in their 2nd marathon, like, would it be that big a deal? Is it that Richtman is uniquely talented? That US Marathoning is uniquely behind? You could say it's a crisis of expectations but every year we have hundreds of elite Americans running and so few break 2:08. I don't know, it's just hard for me to wrap my head around. Why so few Americans are successful, and why of all the guys in the country who are training, if we're being realistic, very similarly to him (self-paced, freeform, fewer workouts), he is the one who does this.
I will repost my thoughts stated in the other Richtman thread. Japan's collegiate system is based on developing half marathoners. Hundreds (thousands?) of these half marathon specialists become marathoners on corporate teams running very high mileage.
This is why Japan has more 2:08:00 marathoners - they have more people putting in the work for years to succeed in longer races. The US would have more Richtmans if it had more runners.
In other countries it is not so rare to have 28:30 runners become 2:07 marathoners.
In my country Koen Naert, a 28:37 runner turned to the marathon because he was not fast enough to compete in the 10,000m internationally. Kaukasian, 5'11. He has run 2:06:56.
Japan has a lot of 28:30 runners doing great in the marathon. My opinion is that mileage is king and workouts are vastly overrated for marathon training. Something in US training is holding American marathoners back. Imho it's too much emphasis on workouts.
I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but in this day and age, I am not too excited by a 2:08 marathon on a relatively fast course. What we can get excited about is potential, there are quite a few things that suggest he's going to faster, perhaps much faster. I am sorry to say it, but when you look at what Americans were running long before this young man was born, the fact that Japan has about a half dozen athletes at this level and what the East African females are currently running it's almost impossible to be jumping for joy. Instead of increasing the standard over time, we are actually lowering it. The simplest of data analysis says the U.S. should have several athletes routinely running 2:05x and an occasional 2:04x or even 2:03x. - My apologizes in advance for killing your joy.
Mentions that he doesn’t do any weight training, it feels like a lot of the pros obsess with weight training, putting on too much upper body muscle
Yes I picked up on that in the podcast as well in which he said he never lifts weights but it's hard to believe because I've seen photographs of Matt, and he displays impressive biceps + upper body strength, relative to his weight. I'm guessing 5.10/135-140. Richtman looks like a guy who could do 10 to 20 pull-ups with good form. Good enough for the Marines? Probably not but certainly good enough to be an infantry man in the army.
Just commented this on a different thread but I also saw he mentions the poor conditions on his Strava quite frequently. A lot of people are going to say that "his training works for him" and that he shouldn't change it but I simply refuse to believe that this kid can't be made better by moving out of a place that is sub zero and buried in snow for half the year and incorporating more high end aerobic work. If he did he might be a 2:05 guy.
It's not sub 0 and buried in snow half the year. The coldest month in Bozeman is December/January and their average high is 35, average low is 15. Tons of other states with runners that cold. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan are colder among other states. And he's from Illinois and was training a lot in Illinois the past several months. Illinois is not colder than many many other states. So the excuse that he's just tough because of running in cold is not a good reason to why he's running fast. And running 7:30 pace in 20 degree weather 90% of his running is still easy training. There are a lot of 2:10-2:15 runners who train way harder and more volume. If they all go slower and do less will they become 2:08 guys? I highly doubt it. This whole thing makes no sense. Maybe if Matt did better training he'd be a 2:06 guy, that's a more reasonable take on this. He's an aerobic beast who has been running 61 half marathons and 2:10/2:07 on vary modest training. There are other people in the world running 58's and 59's and 2:06 or faster. Maybe he could be that if he did more intense training.
February is consistently the coldest month in Bozeman. And every year there is about a month of the high being below zero. Each year there is a week where it gets to about 30 -40 below zero without windchill considered. There is a Lot of snow and its stays on the ground for most of winter. True Plenty of places this cold, but it is pretty hard to run here in the winter.
I run in Bozeman through the winter. What people in warmer climates may not understand is that you have to put on two or three layers when it is 0F and this slows you down 30 seconds to a minute per mile. Once you factor that in maybe his training doesn't seem so slow?
Strava shows heart rate, so that might be a better indicator than pace for him.