The Norwegian Method for Low Milage thread is full of testimonials of progress on 6-7 hours a week training and is really simple.
No stress on choosing what the workout needs to be / etc. Might be worth a look.
I follow that thread actually but I find it kind of difficult to manage, I kind of get the gist of it and I am also in the Strava club but basically, hill workouts for economy, then long threshold reps, and short threshold reps, and then volume otherwise?
What are the details on the long run and also the paces to try to hit those long threshold workouts at... dunno, feels a little too toss up to me and otherwise too many pages to read through (80+ now I think?)
Try and get a copy of 'The self-made Olympian' by the late Ron Daws. It is about how Daws applied the Lydiard method to his own situation and went from self-described mediocrity as a collegian (Minnesota Gophers) to making the Olympic team (marathon) in the '68 games. The book is really about the Lydiard method and interesting to see how an individual adapted it post college.
The best training methodology is the one you'll actually do.
Yeah, I think any training plan with backed up results and credibility would be something I'm willing to attempt and stick to. I'm quite dedicated and I've undergone some absolutely gutting training following the Self Coached Runner as my first plan attempt (kind of dreading workouts each day but getting them done and holding on to splits) and definitely overdoing it.
Anything more reasonable and moderate I'm sure I can execute on.
Also, everyone else saying "if you want to be self-coached you need to coach yourself" - I just mean self-coached like, as a person that doesn't have a physical coach and can't really get one, what plan to follow. So I guess not literally self coached to be pedantic, but yes I am clearly asking for coaching plans :/
But in following random other plans I do intend to find what workouts work well and that I like to do and then stick with that and I guess that fits what you mean in saying "self coached".
Nice ideas by the people suggesting just work on daily volume then long run volume then another 2nd higher volume day via Nic Bideau quote - I do guess my first quest should be to get up there in mileage.
Definitely will go after those first. I just see too many instances of people only running high mileage at easy pace with varying distances and then not performing because they haven't tackled faster paces like hills or stuff. I personally have never routinely incorporated hills or strides before which is a HUGE PROBLEM so I am definitely looking forward to that. I've basically only experienced cooking myself up at Daniels Interval pace so far so just trying to wean myself off and work on economy and other things first and train better.
Try and get a copy of 'The self-made Olympian' by the late Ron Daws. It is about how Daws applied the Lydiard method to his own situation and went from self-described mediocrity as a collegian (Minnesota Gophers) to making the Olympic team (marathon) in the '68 games. The book is really about the Lydiard method and interesting to see how an individual adapted it post college.
Thanks. Will do, actually, looks like a really good read. Inspiring guy. Unknown high school runner to 4:30s college miler to US Marathon champ on self study? Def going to pick it up somewhere, even if just as an inspiring read like Once a Runner lol
Try and get a copy of 'The self-made Olympian' by the late Ron Daws. It is about how Daws applied the Lydiard method to his own situation and went from self-described mediocrity as a collegian (Minnesota Gophers) to making the Olympic team (marathon) in the '68 games. The book is really about the Lydiard method and interesting to see how an individual adapted it post college.
Thanks. Will do, actually, looks like a really good read. Inspiring guy. Unknown high school runner to 4:30s college miler to US Marathon champ on self study? Def going to pick it up somewhere, even if just as an inspiring read like Once a Runner lol
It is not too long and a short read as well , you can probably finish it in a just a day or so. I got a copy from Runners World back in 1977-78. Good luck !
Thanks. Will do, actually, looks like a really good read. Inspiring guy. Unknown high school runner to 4:30s college miler to US Marathon champ on self study? Def going to pick it up somewhere, even if just as an inspiring read like Once a Runner lol
It is not too long and a short read as well , you can probably finish it in a just a day or so. I got a copy from Runners World back in 1977-78. Good luck !
It's an excellent book. I don't know how easy or hard it is to find. It is heavily aimed at the marathon. I don't know if that's your focus or not but even if not you can adapt some of it for other distances.
As we're mentioning the Lydiard Method, later in Arthur's career he saw that the sport had changed and that most runners were not aiming to come to a peak twice a year to win national championships but rather wanted to be in form to race well pretty much year round. So he put together a schedule that he called his "Race Week-non Race Week" schedule. It's in two or three of his later books but if you dig around the internet for a while you probably can find it by itself. We had a thread about it seven years ago:
A few posts in I wrote what his version of the schedule looks like. I think the discussion about it was pretty useful. I also think that if the marathon is your focus you're probably looking more towards one or two peaks a year and might do better with the Daws book.
It is not too long and a short read as well , you can probably finish it in a just a day or so. I got a copy from Runners World back in 1977-78. Good luck !
It's an excellent book. I don't know how easy or hard it is to find. It is heavily aimed at the marathon.
just as an aside, one of the runners Daws mentions in his book that he mentored is Steve Hoag. Hoag finished 2nd in 2:11 behind Bill Rodgers in the '75 Boston. Sadly, both Daws and Hoag have passed away. These guys were at the forefront of the running boom. Steven Hoag, Minnesota distance running legend, dies at 70
It's an excellent book. I don't know how easy or hard it is to find. It is heavily aimed at the marathon.
just as an aside, one of the runners Daws mentions in his book that he mentored is Steve Hoag. Hoag finished 2nd in 2:11 behind Bill Rodgers in the '75 Boston. Sadly, both Daws and Hoag have passed away. These guys were at the forefront of the running boom. Steven Hoag, Minnesota distance running legend, dies at 70
Steve used to post here somewhat frequently until he got sick. I thought he had a really good chance at the '76 Olympic team given his Boston performance in '75 but he was starting to have injury troubles and Boston '75 was really his high water mark.
But in following random other plans I do intend to find what workouts work well and that I like to do and then stick with that and I guess that fits what you mean in saying "self coached".
Just keep in mind that any decent plan isn't just a set of workouts. It's also not just a calendar of what to do when. A good plan is at heart a theory of physiology from which everything else flows. So if you go with Daniels, you do workouts because you're targeting various energy systems. Canova's training methods are built around goal pace and give almost no thought to energy systems. And so on. Sticking with a plan doesn't mean following the training calendar. It means reading enough to understand the theory of training so that you can adapt the plan in a way that fits your life and remains within the parameters of the plan.
The Norwegian Method for Low Milage thread is full of testimonials of progress on 6-7 hours a week training and is really simple.
No stress on choosing what the workout needs to be / etc. Might be worth a look.
I follow that thread actually but I find it kind of difficult to manage, I kind of get the gist of it and I am also in the Strava club but basically, hill workouts for economy, then long threshold reps, and short threshold reps, and then volume otherwise?
What are the details on the long run and also the paces to try to hit those long threshold workouts at... dunno, feels a little too toss up to me and otherwise too many pages to read through (80+ now I think?)
The gist of it is more important than the details. Balance the variables to maximise training load, minimise fatigue and injury risk, and allow for recovery. There are different ways of doing it but that thread details an effective one: push your lactate threshold up by maximising time between LT1 and LT2 (depending on rep length, see Hard2Find's pace guide), done as reps rather than continuous runs. Long run, hills and TTs/races are icing on the cake and optional. At the minimum you can think of it as just alternating easy and sub-T days.
I follow that thread actually but I find it kind of difficult to manage, I kind of get the gist of it and I am also in the Strava club but basically, hill workouts for economy, then long threshold reps, and short threshold reps, and then volume otherwise?
What are the details on the long run and also the paces to try to hit those long threshold workouts at... dunno, feels a little too toss up to me and otherwise too many pages to read through (80+ now I think?)
The gist of it is more important than the details. Balance the variables to maximise training load, minimise fatigue and injury risk, and allow for recovery. There are different ways of doing it but that thread details an effective one: push your lactate threshold up by maximising time between LT1 and LT2 (depending on rep length, see Hard2Find's pace guide), done as reps rather than continuous runs. Long run, hills and TTs/races are icing on the cake and optional. At the minimum you can think of it as just alternating easy and sub-T days.
Yes! You're describing "principles" which every good methodology is based on.
Harrington Emerson: "as to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble."
I'm 65 and run a lot less than I used to- motivation slipping after 53 years of running and racing. But when I DO actually get into a training "mode" (mood?) lol I typically have 4 types of workouts that I do which I try to fit into a fluid cycle.
By fluid cycle I mean, at my age I can't "predict how long recovery will take between workouts. Sometimes I'm ready to go two days later sometimes 3 or 4.
So, I have:
1. Hills- simple right out my front door
2. "Short Reps"- 150-400/500
3. "Long Reps"- 600-1 mile
4. Tempo Runs
Ideally, I'd do one of each in each cycle but I admit that in my age and lack of "seriousness" I tend to do the shorter reps more often because they were always my favorite.
I really enjoyed the book 'Run Faster' by Brad Hudson, there are some sample plans in there but it's more about the philosophy of training and adapting the plan over time. It's more of a canova-like philosophy of increasing race specificity over time, with a focus on achievable workouts and sustainable growth, vs hammering huge hero workouts etc. it's more focused on the 5k to the marathon though.
The gist of it is more important than the details. Balance the variables to maximise training load, minimise fatigue and injury risk, and allow for recovery. There are different ways of doing it but that thread details an effective one: push your lactate threshold up by maximising time between LT1 and LT2 (depending on rep length, see Hard2Find's pace guide), done as reps rather than continuous runs. Long run, hills and TTs/races are icing on the cake and optional. At the minimum you can think of it as just alternating easy and sub-T days.
Can you please provide the pace guide? Or some more context to your post?
Can you please provide the pace guide? Or some more context to your post?
Hard2Find is a poster on the Norwegian model on lower mileage thread but I kinda can't find the pace guide.
Maybe this?
Hard2Find wrote:
Tinman on a thread from YEARS ago (perhaps before I was born LOL), provided a conversion table for tempo training as follows: 4.0 mmol = 1.07*(5K_Race_Pace) 3.5 mmol = 1.10*(5K_Race_Pace) 2.5 mmol = 1.13*(5K_Race_Pace)
The Norwegian Method for Low Milage thread is full of testimonials of progress on 6-7 hours a week training and is really simple.
No stress on choosing what the workout needs to be / etc. Might be worth a look.
I follow that thread actually but I find it kind of difficult to manage, I kind of get the gist of it and I am also in the Strava club but basically, hill workouts for economy, then long threshold reps, and short threshold reps, and then volume otherwise?
What are the details on the long run and also the paces to try to hit those long threshold workouts at... dunno, feels a little too toss up to me and otherwise too many pages to read through (80+ now I think?)
Look at p60, post by summary, you'll find the info there.
A good training plan is not necessarily rocket science.
Maybe the most difficult part is to be honnest on whether you are progressing or not and more importantly on whether you are correctly recovering. If so, the exact content is not very important, providing you are covering the bases (some long, some fast...)
Seeing as how my troubles have been related to overtraining and overrunning without concrete paces (just training at an overreaching 'goal paces' and etc) and under-recovering, I'm going to follow Daniels as a steady paced plan with ample recovery and volume for now. The old plan I was on was high 'quality' many back to back workouts but low volume and was ROUGH, by time I managed to recover to race it had taken me so long that my fitness was gone. So yeah, definitely not how you want to do it.
I'm now wondering how Tinman paces and Daniels paces compare and how I might build workouts with Daniels but also sneak in some CV to put them together but that's a problem for another day.
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